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Speaker 1: This space was downloaded via spacesdown.com.
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Speaker 1: Visit to download your spaces today.
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Speaker 2: Hello everybody, welcome to this edition of the Juan Galt Show.
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Speaker 2: Today we will be speaking with Nopara about Wasabi Wallet, samurai devs being arrested, and the future of privacy in Bitcoin.
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Speaker 2: As we get this space warmed up, I will be discussing the latest news of the day.
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Speaker 2: So if you head over to our page, you will see that we just posted a thread this morning about the volatility adjusted power lot index.
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Speaker 2: So Bitcoin news, we have just launched a new research newsletter comes out every week on Fridays.
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Speaker 2: And I'm very excited about this.
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Speaker 2: We've got a great mind in Sina.
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Speaker 2: who is producing this original content, and he came up with his own take on the power law.
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Speaker 2: So the power law is gaining a lot of popularity these days.
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Speaker 2: Last cycle, it was S2F, stock-to-flow model, but that kind of broke.
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Speaker 2: Well, it definitely broke in the last bear market and didn't reach the peaks which it had promised back in 2021.
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Speaker 2: And now it seems as if this power law, which was first quote-unquote, discovered by an Italian professor named Giovanni back in 2013, he first brought it up.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, now it's risen to popularity, and we have our own researcher, Stina, of 21st Capital, who has taken his own look on it.
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Speaker 2: says that he has a more accurate version of the power law called the Volatility Adjusted Power Law Index.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, highly recommend you go check it out.
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Speaker 2: We've got a thread on our page pinned up top for you to dive in and take a look for yourself.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's pretty exciting stuff and well thought out and researched, and I highly recommend you take a look.
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Speaker 2: In overall news, we've got the average Bitcoin mining costs hit a level of $83,600 according to MicroMacro.
00:02:42,859 --> 00:02:51,028
Speaker 2: That means, of course, at these levels, it's $66,000.
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Speaker 2: Bitcoin miners are losing money, only those with the cheapest electricity are able to survive and compete in this market.
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Speaker 2: As we see after most halvings, there is a large minor consolidation as those who were once profitable pre-halving are no longer so post-halving.
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Speaker 2: I mean, we should definitely expect the Bitcoin price to catch up to the mining cost, of course, in no short time.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, this is par for the course in what we see in most cycles.
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Speaker 2: In other news, there was a lot of outflows yesterday from the Bitcoin ETFs.
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Speaker 2: over $226 million came out of the ETFs yesterday after $100 million worth of inflows on the 12th.
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Speaker 2: So, people are complaining about all this money going into the ETFs and the price not going up.
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Speaker 2: Well, yesterday we did see a proper correlation between price going out and a dip in Bitcoin.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and then we see MicroStrategy this morning.
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Speaker 2: upsizes their convertible note offering from $500 million to $700 million.
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Speaker 2: So yeah, they are issuing more debts, more shares in order to buy more Bitcoin.
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Speaker 2: These things seem oversubscribed.
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Speaker 2: So what he came out with yesterday was $500 million and he upped that a day later to $700 million worth.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, Michael Saylor keeps DCA-ing from his MicroStrategy piggy bank into Bitcoin.
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Speaker 2: has over 1% of the total supply, I believe 214,000 Bitcoin in total, and yeah, that number will increase.
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Speaker 2: In a little bit of a political shift over to Argentina, it seems as if the austerity measures by President Malay are working.
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Speaker 2: Argentina's monthly inflation rate in May was the lowest since 2022, dropping for the fifth consecutive month to 4.2%, and the annual inflation rate has fallen from 133% in December to 40%.
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Speaker 2: So, of course, with inflation, you never want to see any positive numbers in that regard, right?
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Speaker 2: That means that your purchasing power is being robbed from you.
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Speaker 2: But when you are dealing with such horrible numbers, such as we've seen in Argentina, I think it was peaking at over 200% last year in terms of inflation, these numbers are a welcome sign to be seen.
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Speaker 2: Banking news.
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Speaker 2: We've got Swiss regulator FINMA opens a bankruptcy proceedings against FloBank.
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Speaker 2: FloBank is a small bank out of Switzerland.
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Speaker 2: They allow customers to buy, sell, and hold Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies directly.
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Speaker 2: And they were also a partner of Binance, providing custody services for large investors.
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Speaker 2: But another bank bites the dust.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, of course, Last year we saw lots of problems over in Switzerland with UBS and everything going on over there.
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Speaker 2: So, more issues popping up in the neutral state of Switzerland.
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Speaker 2: And in the world of politics in America, we've got Bitcoin miners, riot platforms, Marathon, CleanSpark, and more coming together to form the Bitcoin Voter Project.
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Speaker 2: This is a Bitcoin-centric super PAC, so a political action committee.
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Speaker 2: They are able to raise money and put on ads and promote education for Bitcoin in the upcoming election.
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Speaker 2: They already have a $5 million piggy bank and they are looking to raise more money, of course.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, this week Trump met with the heads of these large Bitcoin miners in America.
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Speaker 2: And, um, yeah, it seems as if they are running with the ball now that they had it.
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Speaker 2: So they're putting their full efforts behind a Trump presidency.
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Speaker 2: So it seems like with this super pack and, um, it'll be interesting to see how this develops, but yeah, we're, uh, 2024 is shaping up to be.
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Speaker 2: The Bitcoin election.
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Speaker 2: Um, We look over to Russia and a new round of sanctions is coming into effect this August and it's not looking too great for, uh, the average citizen of Russia, right?
00:07:49,754 --> 00:07:57,241
Speaker 2: Uh, their main stock exchange has, um, D listed using rubles and dollars.
00:07:57,810 --> 00:08:08,787
Speaker 2: And now it seems as if the Chinese yuan will become the main currency as the exchange rate of the yuan ruble will set the trajectory for all other currency pairs.
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Speaker 2: This has set off a sort of a mini bank run where people are heading to the banks quickly to retrieve what cash they can out of ATMs.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's been a tough year, of course, tough couple of years for the Russian citizens who are dealing with sanctions and a war that their country started, right?
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Speaker 2: Pretty rough over there.
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Speaker 2: We will see if that leads to further.
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Speaker 2: Bitcoin adoption on a global scale.
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Speaker 2: OK, we got Juan in the room.
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Speaker 2: We've got our guest here as well.
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Speaker 2: Just send invites to both of you.
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Speaker 2: But yes, Juan, can you hop on?
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Speaker 2: Let's get you up on stage.
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Speaker 2: And some other.
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Speaker 2: Big news, of course, yesterday, Congressman Tom Massey, definitely the most base member of the Congress.
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Speaker 2: He released a video yesterday where he said that he had listened to Seyfedine Amos' The Bitcoin Standard, which sort of is just base-level doctrine here in the Bitcoin community, and it inspired him to write a bill to end the Fed.
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Speaker 2: Uh, this was an effort that was taken up first by Ron Paul, uh, I believe back in 2012, um, after he wrote a book with the same name and the Fed.
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Speaker 2: And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's just pretty crazy how the Overton window is shifting.
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Speaker 2: Bitcoin is in the news is being spoken about by politicians.
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Speaker 2: Politicians are reading the Bitcoin standard and even some of them are introducing bills to end the Fed.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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Speaker 2: All right.
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Speaker 0: Yeah, I got you.
00:10:11,285 --> 00:10:11,705
Speaker 0: Can you hear me OK?
00:10:11,725 --> 00:10:12,766
Speaker 0: Yeah, you're good.
00:10:13,366 --> 00:10:13,646
Speaker 0: Awesome.
00:10:13,686 --> 00:10:15,347
Speaker 0: No par is on the on the stage.
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Speaker 0: If you want to try and give Mike no part of 73.
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Speaker 1: Yep.
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Speaker 0: Yeah, that's quite a story.
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Speaker 0: I didn't realize.
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Speaker 0: I mean, there's always kind of like a bank run in these kind of events, but it wasn't that Brussels like confiscated more treasury or more, let's say, collateral from the Russian stock exchange.
00:10:35,218 --> 00:10:36,058
Speaker 0: Something like that happened.
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Speaker 2: So there was over $300 billion worth of foreign exchange reserves that were seized at the start of the war.
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Speaker 2: But now it looks as if after this G7 meeting with the heads of European states and Biden, it looks as if they want to use that to help fund the Ukrainian war effort.
00:10:58,348 --> 00:10:58,588
Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 2: And America is signing a 10 year agreement with Ukraine now to lock in whoever is president after Biden into continue funding this war.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, it just seems like a lot more money printing is in store to fulfill all of these imperial obligations.
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Speaker 0: That's wild.
00:11:21,196 --> 00:11:21,836
Speaker 0: Well, you know what?
00:11:21,856 --> 00:11:31,253
Speaker 0: I mean, they're doing what they're doing their best to push Russia into the arms of Asia and China and It's just incredibly shortsighted what they're doing.
00:11:31,333 --> 00:11:34,695
Speaker 0: I you know, I just can't believe it, but it's not surprising.
00:11:34,715 --> 00:11:35,415
Speaker 0: they I don't know.
00:11:35,555 --> 00:11:37,956
Speaker 0: I mean, I don't even know what to say about it.
00:11:38,076 --> 00:11:49,115
Speaker 0: It's just like insane that you would that you would push your enemy number two in the arms, like your, your counterpart number two into, into the arms or counterpart number one.
00:11:49,455 --> 00:11:50,556
Speaker 0: It's just basic strategy.
00:11:50,596 --> 00:11:51,836
Speaker 0: You don't, you don't push.
00:11:52,357 --> 00:11:57,519
Speaker 0: Like if you have two players against you, you don't help them unite.
00:11:57,619 --> 00:11:58,700
Speaker 0: You've got to keep them divided.
00:11:58,860 --> 00:12:00,081
Speaker 0: And that's what they're doing.
00:12:00,101 --> 00:12:02,442
Speaker 0: You know, they're just pushing China and Russia together.
00:12:02,462 --> 00:12:14,967
Speaker 2: And, um, No, it seems as if the plan was to deindustrialize Germany and cut them off from their natural gas in order to make sure that Germany and Russia don't pair up.
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Speaker 2: And, uh, uh, yeah.
00:12:19,891 --> 00:12:20,031
Speaker 0: Yeah.
00:12:20,051 --> 00:12:24,915
Speaker 0: There's also that strategy, of course, like keeping, keeping Russia and Germany apart, which makes sense.
00:12:24,975 --> 00:12:32,701
Speaker 0: You want to separate, you want to prevent the great power rising, but now, now that he's just selling to China and like, you know what, that's going to be fine too.
00:12:32,721 --> 00:12:33,742
Speaker 0: They have a border with China.
00:12:34,144 --> 00:12:39,905
Speaker 0: They got a you know, they could probably throw a rock and hit hit Japan from their from their shores in the east.
00:12:39,945 --> 00:12:42,246
Speaker 0: So it's just going to.
00:12:42,386 --> 00:12:46,627
Speaker 0: it's the bipolar world is rising basically by bipolar.
00:12:47,307 --> 00:12:48,487
Speaker 0: Hopefully not in the crazy way.
00:12:50,807 --> 00:12:54,948
Speaker 0: And anyway, thank you, Rob, for the news recap.
00:12:55,388 --> 00:12:55,988
Speaker 0: Appreciate it.
00:12:56,449 --> 00:12:57,409
Speaker 0: Welcome, everybody, to the show.
00:12:57,429 --> 00:12:59,329
Speaker 0: We're going to be talking about Wasabi Wallet.
00:12:59,369 --> 00:13:02,410
Speaker 0: Let me just see if I can change the title real quick.
00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:03,210
Speaker 0: Privacy.
00:13:08,857 --> 00:13:10,238
Speaker 0: And we have Nopara today.
00:13:11,599 --> 00:13:16,782
Speaker 0: Some people might not know Nopara, but he is the creator of Wasabi Wallet.
00:13:17,022 --> 00:13:26,928
Speaker 0: And he, as far as I can tell, created the software that ended up leading to the Samurai software infrastructure.
00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:32,372
Speaker 0: So that's, I mean, he's a huge player in the space.
00:13:32,712 --> 00:13:41,391
Speaker 0: And usually engineers are not like, you know, giant influencers, you know, he's kind of more in the background getting, getting stuff done.
00:13:42,032 --> 00:13:43,934
Speaker 0: So, um, so it's great to have him on.
00:13:43,954 --> 00:13:45,996
Speaker 0: I mean, I don't, I don't see too many podcasts with no part.
00:13:46,016 --> 00:13:47,558
Speaker 0: So this is, it's great to have you on, man.
00:13:47,578 --> 00:13:48,499
Speaker 0: Uh, how are you doing?
00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:48,899
Speaker 0: Can you hear us?
00:13:48,939 --> 00:13:49,220
Speaker 0: Okay.
00:13:51,302 --> 00:13:52,043
Speaker 1: Yes, I can.
00:13:52,383 --> 00:13:54,545
Speaker 1: Thank you for the kind introduction.
00:13:54,886 --> 00:13:55,807
Speaker 1: What about my voice?
00:13:56,900 --> 00:13:57,521
Speaker 0: It's good.
00:13:57,641 --> 00:13:58,001
Speaker 0: It was good.
00:13:58,081 --> 00:13:58,982
Speaker 0: OK, awesome.
00:13:59,242 --> 00:14:04,767
Speaker 0: So, yeah, before we get into it, just a quick shout out to Bitcoin News for helping us host this show.
00:14:04,807 --> 00:14:14,676
Speaker 0: They have an awesome newsletter on their website where you can sign up and they're doing macro analysis and doing just how many people got to get an understanding of what's going on in the markets.
00:14:15,117 --> 00:14:19,741
Speaker 0: And they also have a YouTube channel where they're putting out steady YouTube content, very high quality stuff.
00:14:20,061 --> 00:14:20,962
Speaker 0: They're growing very fast.
00:14:21,022 --> 00:14:21,763
Speaker 0: It's cool to see that.
00:14:22,096 --> 00:14:23,977
Speaker 0: So go check out thegoodnews.com.
00:14:24,357 --> 00:14:31,502
Speaker 0: And also this conversation is going to be published on all podcasting platforms as the Juan Galcho.
00:14:33,243 --> 00:14:35,764
Speaker 0: We're on iTunes, Spotify, you name it, we are there.
00:14:36,124 --> 00:14:38,606
Speaker 0: And we actually had a conversation with Nopara.
00:14:39,332 --> 00:14:52,154
Speaker 0: a couple, like I think at the beginning of last year, where we, you know, the market was in a very different spot, you know, obviously Samurai Wallet and Wasabi Wallet have been, um, they were kind of rivals, like market rivals for a long time.
00:14:52,214 --> 00:14:53,695
Speaker 0: And there was a lot of like juicy drama.
00:14:53,755 --> 00:14:53,895
Speaker 0: Right.
00:14:53,915 --> 00:14:54,915
Speaker 0: So we got into it back then.
00:14:54,935 --> 00:14:55,675
Speaker 0: It was really interesting.
00:14:56,035 --> 00:14:58,336
Speaker 0: There was a lot of alpha and not, not too many people listen to it.
00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:00,316
Speaker 0: So just the beginning of the show, but it's really great show.
00:15:00,336 --> 00:15:05,397
Speaker 0: Um, and obviously today we are kind of in a new era, uh, of this market.
00:15:05,677 --> 00:15:09,995
Speaker 0: And, um, Yeah, I think it's going to be a great conversation.
00:15:10,035 --> 00:15:15,779
Speaker 0: But if you're interested, you can go check that out at JuanGal.com and find it, find the podcast there.
00:15:15,979 --> 00:15:19,100
Speaker 0: Or again, look us up on Spotify, iTunes, whatever you like.
00:15:19,881 --> 00:15:25,684
Speaker 0: And yeah, this this cover will be published and sent out to your newsletter, to your mail if you sign up to my newsletter as well.
00:15:25,724 --> 00:15:27,985
Speaker 0: So without further ado.
00:15:31,207 --> 00:15:32,528
Speaker 0: Nopara, how are you doing today?
00:15:35,503 --> 00:15:50,735
Speaker 1: Well, since everyone is advertising here, I want to also mention that I got into longevity and if you guys are interested, I've been covering the Rejuvenation Olympics, which is a competition.
00:15:50,755 --> 00:16:00,583
Speaker 1: Rejuvenation Olympics, which is a competition on who can slow down their aging, their pace of aging the most.
00:16:03,598 --> 00:16:05,039
Speaker 1: And how am I doing today?
00:16:05,139 --> 00:16:07,502
Speaker 1: Actually, something really interesting happened today.
00:16:07,582 --> 00:16:10,505
Speaker 1: So I did a VO2 max test.
00:16:11,526 --> 00:16:20,155
Speaker 1: And you know, you got really like, you make yourself go to the limits, to your limits, to your extremes.
00:16:20,536 --> 00:16:24,220
Speaker 1: And after the VO2 max test, I went into a jacuzzi.
00:16:25,195 --> 00:16:30,098
Speaker 1: And I just get so dizzy, I stumbled out of it.
00:16:30,218 --> 00:16:30,959
Speaker 1: It was crazy.
00:16:31,039 --> 00:16:39,945
Speaker 1: So right now, my IQ is kind of like minus 50 points of IQ I have because I'm still dizzy and stuff.
00:16:40,785 --> 00:16:42,887
Speaker 1: I hope I don't have to stop this show.
00:16:43,287 --> 00:16:46,809
Speaker 0: I think you'll have plenty of IQ points to spare.
00:16:49,025 --> 00:16:50,466
Speaker 0: No, no worries there, but that's super cool.
00:16:50,527 --> 00:16:53,570
Speaker 0: So are you listening to a Huberman lab podcast?
00:16:53,610 --> 00:17:00,316
Speaker 0: I just, I just heard about VO max yesterday, listening to their new show on, on, on this stuff.
00:17:00,376 --> 00:17:06,162
Speaker 0: And I want to do it as VO max is like a state of, uh, maximum oxygen bio availability.
00:17:06,182 --> 00:17:07,964
Speaker 0: So you basically just push yourself or something like that.
00:17:08,204 --> 00:17:11,227
Speaker 0: You just push yourself to like maximum exercise.
00:17:12,468 --> 00:17:17,711
Speaker 0: uh, exertion and that lets you know how good your, your, I think cardiovascular system is doing.
00:17:17,731 --> 00:17:23,053
Speaker 0: Um, and it's a, it's, it's apparently like the best predictor of, of longevity.
00:17:23,133 --> 00:17:23,373
Speaker 0: Right.
00:17:23,453 --> 00:17:25,394
Speaker 0: So that's super interesting.
00:17:27,756 --> 00:17:28,136
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:30,917
Speaker 1: I think you even explained it better than I do.
00:17:31,377 --> 00:17:34,939
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's the best, but, uh, but it's certainly up there.
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:35,219
Speaker 0: Yeah.
00:17:35,239 --> 00:17:35,739
Speaker 0: It's up there.
00:17:35,819 --> 00:17:39,121
Speaker 0: It's up there on, on, yeah, it's incredibly well correlated.
00:17:39,705 --> 00:17:40,546
Speaker 0: Um, yeah, that's really cool.
00:17:40,586 --> 00:17:41,626
Speaker 0: I actually want to do that.
00:17:41,646 --> 00:17:49,972
Speaker 0: I, um, you know, I think some of us actually like, like, I don't know, there's some people that I see that they, they don't seem to care to live a long life.
00:17:50,152 --> 00:17:55,595
Speaker 0: Like some people are just like, you know, they have like this either warrior or rockstar mentality.
00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:57,917
Speaker 0: They're like, I'll just die young, you know, and go hard.
00:17:57,957 --> 00:17:58,177
Speaker 0: Right.
00:17:58,197 --> 00:17:59,158
Speaker 0: And it's like, okay, that's fine.
00:17:59,198 --> 00:18:00,038
Speaker 0: I guess that's cool.
00:18:00,138 --> 00:18:02,400
Speaker 0: But like, I actually want to live a long time and I want to.
00:18:02,881 --> 00:18:06,662
Speaker 0: you know, be healthy for a long time and have a lot of time.
00:18:06,882 --> 00:18:07,882
Speaker 0: Yeah, exactly.
00:18:07,942 --> 00:18:08,142
Speaker 0: Right.
00:18:08,202 --> 00:18:09,523
Speaker 0: Let's be like vampires, you know.
00:18:09,823 --> 00:18:13,103
Speaker 0: Let's go test the boundaries.
00:18:13,544 --> 00:18:13,884
Speaker 0: I don't know.
00:18:14,084 --> 00:18:16,444
Speaker 0: I mean, I think I think we're moving into a very cypherpunk world.
00:18:16,484 --> 00:18:28,047
Speaker 0: And one of the things that I liked about our last conversation was that you you had a very actually like a very cypherpunk, but almost cypherpunk in the video game type.
00:18:29,147 --> 00:18:30,788
Speaker 0: sort of mentality, right?
00:18:30,848 --> 00:18:33,070
Speaker 0: Not just in the sense that you are like a true cypherpunk.
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:41,457
Speaker 0: I mean, you're writing privacy software with cryptography that's sort of censorship resistant and try and like navigate this very complex political space.
00:18:42,498 --> 00:18:52,667
Speaker 0: But also, You know, we talked about for a moment about what a Bitcoin world would look like with like Neuralink, Neuralink chips.
00:18:52,747 --> 00:18:52,927
Speaker 0: Right.
00:18:52,947 --> 00:18:56,269
Speaker 0: Like what does Bitcoin sovereignty and security look like in that world?
00:18:56,590 --> 00:18:57,490
Speaker 0: And we touched on that.
00:18:57,510 --> 00:19:00,552
Speaker 0: And it's like, wow, it's very interesting that you're already thinking about that kind of stuff.
00:19:02,153 --> 00:19:05,255
Speaker 0: So not surprised you're also into longevity tech.
00:19:06,856 --> 00:19:07,917
Speaker 0: That's a whole other rabbit hole.
00:19:10,859 --> 00:19:19,721
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's, it's a, I have a longer, longer term vision here because, and it comes back to Bitcoin in the end.
00:19:20,762 --> 00:19:30,947
Speaker 1: Um, I, I suspect we are going to today cover a bunch of things about, um, regulations with privacy and whatnot.
00:19:31,068 --> 00:19:47,421
Speaker 1: And, um, that's, that's pretty much why I stopped, stopped contributing to the space recently because I got some, some, uh, some personal attacks and attacks on my family because of working on Bitcoin privacy.
00:19:48,561 --> 00:19:59,088
Speaker 1: And I figured, like, this is not going to work out in a way that Hawaii I plan to, right?
00:19:59,148 --> 00:20:08,774
Speaker 1: You create a company, the normal way you create a company, you build a product, a lot of people like it, and everyone is happy and honky-dory kumbaya.
00:20:11,286 --> 00:20:18,709
Speaker 1: So I had this crazy idea that, OK, so how can we make Bitcoin privacy work?
00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:22,211
Speaker 1: Or a private anonymous payment system, right?
00:20:22,271 --> 00:20:24,372
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if it's Bitcoin or not.
00:20:24,492 --> 00:20:27,213
Speaker 1: But how can we do that?
00:20:27,754 --> 00:20:29,554
Speaker 1: Well, there are two ways.
00:20:30,275 --> 00:20:40,473
Speaker 1: One is that the cypherpunk way, the decentralized everything way, The altcoin is going to build it.
00:20:40,533 --> 00:20:46,155
Speaker 1: The open source developer is going to build it for no money and stuff like that.
00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:48,636
Speaker 1: And it might happen that way.
00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:51,918
Speaker 1: We might get anonymous payment system online.
00:20:52,258 --> 00:20:58,780
Speaker 1: that's unfitable that way.
00:20:59,781 --> 00:21:03,982
Speaker 1: But there is another way, which is you get a lot of money.
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:20,854
Speaker 1: develop a very good system in stealth mode, and then you launch it to the world, but it has to be so good that it gets adopted so fast that regulators cannot even say what, right?
00:21:21,615 --> 00:21:25,396
Speaker 1: So that's kind of my longer term.
00:21:26,936 --> 00:21:33,318
Speaker 1: Some people might say naive plan here that, you know, I want to get a billion dollar, right?
00:21:33,378 --> 00:21:39,127
Speaker 1: I calculated that couple of million, It was not cutting it with wasabi.
00:21:39,187 --> 00:21:41,989
Speaker 1: So we need orders of magnitude more.
00:21:42,049 --> 00:21:54,337
Speaker 1: So let's say a billion dollar and, and then we can, we can, we can work in staff mode and, and launch something great very quickly.
00:21:54,877 --> 00:21:57,239
Speaker 1: But how do you get a billion dollar?
00:21:57,979 --> 00:22:04,644
Speaker 1: Well, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's probably not going to happen in your lifetime, right?
00:22:04,684 --> 00:22:06,165
Speaker 1: The chances are against you.
00:22:07,322 --> 00:22:12,203
Speaker 1: or not in a normal human life span, right?
00:22:13,083 --> 00:22:33,427
Speaker 1: So that's my overarching big picture motivation on working on longevity, that I can live long enough to make a shitload of money and then be at an anonymous payment system that's instant, free, uninflatable.
00:22:36,124 --> 00:22:37,326
Speaker 1: take the bird by storm.
00:22:38,128 --> 00:22:38,528
Speaker 0: All right.
00:22:38,629 --> 00:22:40,372
Speaker 0: And is this like a plan?
00:22:40,532 --> 00:22:41,073
Speaker 0: or this is?
00:22:41,934 --> 00:22:44,980
Speaker 0: this is sort of like how you're positioning, you know.
00:22:46,454 --> 00:22:47,314
Speaker 1: It's a dream.
00:22:50,015 --> 00:22:54,036
Speaker 0: Well, I think, I think it's, I think it's maybe the right way to think about it.
00:22:54,076 --> 00:22:54,697
Speaker 0: I don't know.
00:22:55,477 --> 00:23:03,899
Speaker 0: I don't know how you build open source protocols and in stealth mode, you would have to like, it would have to be all very anonymous.
00:23:03,939 --> 00:23:10,001
Speaker 0: And it's, it seems like there's, there's a lot of challenges and obviously whoever attacked you, I mean, these could be feds.
00:23:10,201 --> 00:23:13,602
Speaker 0: These could be, it's more likely to me feds than anybody else.
00:23:13,642 --> 00:23:15,383
Speaker 0: Cause the, the, the, the interest group that.
00:23:16,704 --> 00:23:24,909
Speaker 0: Definitely those who want Bitcoin privacy are the intelligence agencies and the sort of technocratic statists, right?
00:23:25,229 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 0: Like if you had a chart of statism versus technocracy on one end and then like anarchism and, you know, and let's say... technocracy as well on the other end, right?
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:44,443
Speaker 0: Like you have cypherpunks on the bottom corner and then the overlap between people that want like technology driven politics, let's say.
00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:51,247
Speaker 0: And then you have like the feds on the technology driven politics, authoritarian dimension, right?
00:23:51,347 --> 00:23:53,168
Speaker 0: Like we're the libertarians or the authoritarians, right?
00:23:53,708 --> 00:24:05,654
Speaker 0: And they're the ones that are interested in making sure that privacy software is underfunded and has a very difficult challenge ahead, you know?
00:24:06,341 --> 00:24:13,223
Speaker 0: and have to build the most difficult and decentralized protocols, because otherwise the Feds will shut them down, right?
00:24:13,784 --> 00:24:16,364
Speaker 0: And so it's probably what happened.
00:24:16,404 --> 00:24:22,747
Speaker 0: But when did you get personally attacked, if you don't mind me kind of asking you in general, just to get a little bit of a timeline there, like when did this happen?
00:24:25,548 --> 00:24:31,049
Speaker 1: So I've been getting personally attacked since forever, and not just Feds here.
00:24:31,710 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: What gave me the final Nailing the coffin here is when my family got personally attacked, right?
00:24:43,241 --> 00:24:51,783
Speaker 1: So from the Fed side, it's that they shut down my bank account and they shut down my partner's bank account.
00:24:52,243 --> 00:24:52,883
Speaker 0: This was recent.
00:24:53,644 --> 00:25:01,526
Speaker 1: Um, this was about half a year ago when I, when I left wasabi after, before I left.
00:25:01,586 --> 00:25:01,726
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:25:05,402 --> 00:25:08,943
Speaker 1: It was because of North Koreans.
00:25:10,564 --> 00:25:14,105
Speaker 1: Well, it's another interesting thing.
00:25:14,866 --> 00:25:26,790
Speaker 1: So they were trying to establish that North Koreans were using Wasabi at that time, and they submitted a bunch of fake addresses, like CoinJoin outputs.
00:25:30,283 --> 00:25:32,964
Speaker 1: And many of them went into other CoinJoin outputs.
00:25:33,004 --> 00:25:39,865
Speaker 1: So those outputs are like completely anonymous and no one can even tell like what the heck is that output about.
00:25:40,225 --> 00:25:43,865
Speaker 1: So that's how we know that it was like a fake fabricated report.
00:25:44,505 --> 00:25:53,747
Speaker 1: Anyway, so in that few weeks, a couple of things happened with the company, but also with my account, right?
00:25:53,787 --> 00:25:56,788
Speaker 1: With my bank account and my partner's bank account.
00:25:57,768 --> 00:26:08,746
Speaker 1: So that's when I realized that Holy fuck, this is going much, much, much further than my personal well-being, but it's targeting my family.
00:26:09,566 --> 00:26:18,471
Speaker 1: And the other direction is coming from, well, probably it's surprising for many of you, but it's not that surprising to me.
00:26:19,051 --> 00:26:23,633
Speaker 1: It's coming from the samurai part of the equation.
00:26:26,252 --> 00:26:42,765
Speaker 1: I don't know if they thought that that's where I live, but Tdev, the samurai developer who got arrested recently in Portugal...
00:26:42,805 --> 00:26:45,207
Speaker 0: And he's currently still under custody, right?
00:26:45,487 --> 00:26:50,111
Speaker 0: Because Keanu got arrested as well, but he was let go on bond or bail or something like that?
00:26:53,233 --> 00:26:54,694
Speaker 1: Yes, he's on bail now.
00:26:56,169 --> 00:26:57,470
Speaker 1: in the U.S.
00:26:57,650 --> 00:26:59,751
Speaker 1: No one knows what's going on with TDEV.
00:27:00,011 --> 00:27:02,072
Speaker 1: It's probably getting transferred to the
00:27:02,152 --> 00:27:03,253
Speaker 1: U.S.,
00:27:03,733 --> 00:27:07,155
Speaker 1: getting lost in the international justice system.
00:27:07,275 --> 00:27:07,735
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:27:08,155 --> 00:27:15,819
Speaker 1: But TDEV kept doxing my parents' address online.
00:27:16,279 --> 00:27:27,432
Speaker 1: In fact, it got to a point where it was so obviously doxing it that His Twitter bio had my parents' address for a very long time.
00:27:28,412 --> 00:27:35,355
Speaker 1: It still has my parents, the place where they live, right?
00:27:35,915 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: So now it's not the full address, it's just the place, but you know, there are like 3,000 people living in that place, so the anonymity set is not that great.
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: Anyway, so the point is that, ah fuck, they started to target my, family, my fucking parents, you know.
00:27:56,139 --> 00:27:57,900
Speaker 0: And yeah.
00:27:58,260 --> 00:28:09,805
Speaker 0: And people wonder why these kind of things are happening, you know, the way there was like an animosity and like drama and toxicity among these two, let's say, user groups and companies.
00:28:10,465 --> 00:28:15,588
Speaker 0: But, you know, as far as I can tell, there was how many people have been, you know, maybe critical, but like not nasty like this.
00:28:15,608 --> 00:28:18,215
Speaker 0: But this is just very hostile, right?
00:28:18,235 --> 00:28:29,279
Speaker 0: Like if there was a basic property rights and like non-aggression principle that applied to the internet, you would say like doxing is a violation of it, right?
00:28:29,299 --> 00:28:36,161
Speaker 0: Because you're exposing very sensitive information to the world and you're kind of inciting violence while you're doing it.
00:28:36,241 --> 00:28:40,522
Speaker 0: So that's really, really bad.
00:28:40,542 --> 00:28:48,204
Speaker 0: And it's hard to like, You know, I find myself defending Nopara and this group.
00:28:48,424 --> 00:28:49,985
Speaker 0: Sorry, not Nopara.
00:28:50,645 --> 00:28:52,585
Speaker 0: T-Dev and some of the Samurai devs.
00:28:53,486 --> 00:28:57,947
Speaker 0: Obviously on principle, but like, man, they were just such scumbags, right?
00:28:57,967 --> 00:28:59,987
Speaker 0: Like some of these guys were just really nasty.
00:29:00,268 --> 00:29:01,568
Speaker 0: Keanu was always good to me.
00:29:01,788 --> 00:29:05,069
Speaker 0: Like when I interacted with him, he was very civil and cool and like reasonable.
00:29:05,449 --> 00:29:07,510
Speaker 0: But T-Dev, I mean, I don't know.
00:29:07,570 --> 00:29:10,370
Speaker 0: This guy was just... another level of fucked up.
00:29:10,731 --> 00:29:15,872
Speaker 0: and i think we're gonna see we're gonna see some funny discovery and like some weird stuff come out through this case.
00:29:16,812 --> 00:29:20,373
Speaker 0: um but uh well we'll we'll have to wait for that.
00:29:21,314 --> 00:29:22,154
Speaker 0: sorry go go ahead.
00:29:22,914 --> 00:29:23,454
Speaker 1: jackamu.
00:29:25,075 --> 00:29:33,477
Speaker 1: jackamu's of course said it's uh in a very elegant way that i hate the american justice system because they making me defend a samurai.
00:29:34,078 --> 00:29:38,248
Speaker 0: yeah seriously Seriously, I wonder.
00:29:38,488 --> 00:29:39,890
Speaker 0: I have some conspiracy theories.
00:29:39,950 --> 00:29:40,752
Speaker 0: I'm not sure.
00:29:42,822 --> 00:29:44,884
Speaker 0: It's all a little bit too sus to me, right?
00:29:45,144 --> 00:29:52,770
Speaker 0: And it's funny that, you know, I think some of the criticisms that let's say, cause you know, let's not, let's not pretend otherwise.
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:55,432
Speaker 0: I'm on the Wasabi camp on this, on this drum.
00:29:55,452 --> 00:30:05,060
Speaker 0: I've always been, it's, it's always seemed to me that, that there was important design choices made by Wasabi that made more sense than, than Samurais.
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:15,609
Speaker 0: I also understand sort of the, let's say the ideological dimension of Samurai and like, But strategically, it always seemed to me awkward that they would have the XPUBs, right?
00:30:15,649 --> 00:30:17,431
Speaker 0: Like that you didn't need the XPUBs.
00:30:17,992 --> 00:30:50,331
Speaker 0: And so what that means is that the Feds now have the tools to de-anonymize, I don't know, at best, like In the best case scenario, they have the ability to de-anonymize, what, maybe 30% of all coin joins done by Wasabi throughout its whole history because of the XPUBs, assuming that, sorry, I just keep getting the names mixed up, that Samurai had kept the logs of these XPUBs from mobile users, which they needed because they designed the system such that they had to have the XPUPS.
00:30:50,391 --> 00:30:55,933
Speaker 0: and the XPUPS is like a master public key that lets you derive smaller public keys so you can create coin joins.
00:30:56,933 --> 00:31:03,475
Speaker 0: And I mean, there's like you invented a protocol to do the same process without the XPUPS, right?
00:31:07,637 --> 00:31:07,857
Speaker 1: Yep.
00:31:08,537 --> 00:31:11,378
Speaker 1: It's called client side filtering.
00:31:13,621 --> 00:31:23,407
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, this might be the last time that I got into this debate, because this whole debate at this point becomes so meaningless.
00:31:23,607 --> 00:31:34,774
Speaker 1: Now the debate is about how to keep the... how to keep anything alive, you know, because... yeah.
00:31:35,774 --> 00:31:49,786
Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean, these are all debates, but I think we're, you know, a lot of people are probably going to listen to this and think and learn a few things, because Again, like this is, okay, so the Feds now have this ability to de-anonymize 30% of the users.
00:31:50,507 --> 00:31:52,748
Speaker 0: Best case scenario, worst case scenario, it's a lot more.
00:31:53,469 --> 00:31:55,490
Speaker 0: I suspect it's gonna be a lot more.
00:31:56,451 --> 00:32:02,175
Speaker 0: If you like add, like from the beginning of Samurai Wallet, most people were on mobile clients.
00:32:02,355 --> 00:32:07,158
Speaker 0: And then towards the end of it, maybe more than 50% were on Dojo nodes.
00:32:07,239 --> 00:32:14,544
Speaker 0: If you were running your own Dojo node, you in theory weren't giving the XPUB to Samurai and we can we can probably believe that right?
00:32:15,786 --> 00:32:18,929
Speaker 0: But but you were still mixing with people that were dogs, right?
00:32:18,949 --> 00:32:21,511
Speaker 0: and so your anemone said was a lot lower than you thought.
00:32:21,551 --> 00:32:26,917
Speaker 0: it was right and And not dogs like in the literal sense, but in the sense of like.
00:32:26,957 --> 00:32:29,039
Speaker 0: yeah, they had samurai had their Xbox.
00:32:29,059 --> 00:32:35,783
Speaker 0: so so you were sort of mixing with a with a toxic set and And I guess we'll see.
00:32:35,923 --> 00:32:36,083
Speaker 0: Right.
00:32:36,183 --> 00:32:36,763
Speaker 0: And so this is.
00:32:36,823 --> 00:32:40,924
Speaker 0: this could be just the greatest honeypotting in Bitcoin history from a privacy perspective.
00:32:41,784 --> 00:32:44,625
Speaker 0: And and the fact that they were just so hostile.
00:32:45,185 --> 00:32:45,365
Speaker 0: Right.
00:32:45,865 --> 00:32:50,966
Speaker 0: And and evoked that so many people to just hate their guts, you know, like that probably didn't help.
00:32:51,186 --> 00:32:51,386
Speaker 0: Right.
00:32:51,786 --> 00:32:58,328
Speaker 0: Also, it looks like there was I mean, there's some allegations, right, that they were sort of collaborating with, you know, obvious criminals and such.
00:32:58,408 --> 00:33:04,447
Speaker 0: And I mean, you know, there's a difference to me between being like a, like a, like a principled anarchist, right.
00:33:04,467 --> 00:33:11,231
Speaker 0: Like, like, or let's say that that stands for property rights and, and, and, you know, and, and it's trying to give privacy to the world.
00:33:11,331 --> 00:33:21,157
Speaker 0: And, but, and it's a different thing to like, know that people are committing crimes and actively sort of like, not just legal crimes, moral crimes and actively like helping them, right.
00:33:21,257 --> 00:33:23,899
Speaker 0: Or actively engaging them and then using your own technology to hide.
00:33:24,179 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 0: Like that's just straight up.
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:34,627
Speaker 0: piracy like like that's like Piracy like a pirate would do you know, like that's that's that's Black hat stuff right and you know, so it's gonna be.
00:33:34,727 --> 00:33:35,928
Speaker 0: I can't wait for this trial.
00:33:36,128 --> 00:33:48,397
Speaker 0: I mean, I hope that they get a fair trial But I think we're gonna see that there was like a can of worms Underneath this whole thing and I think it'll explain a little bit of their behavior.
00:33:48,437 --> 00:34:00,274
Speaker 0: You know like this some of these people were actually like legit unhinged Um, but, uh, nevertheless, you know, we find ourselves in, um, in a very interesting situation, right.
00:34:00,314 --> 00:34:02,156
Speaker 0: I knew a sort of era of Bitcoin privacy.
00:34:02,176 --> 00:34:11,503
Speaker 0: So I want to get into some of the technology side of things, but, um, and like where we're going, but what was your reaction when, when the, when the samurai guy guys got arrested?
00:34:11,523 --> 00:34:13,083
Speaker 0: I'm, I'm, I'm really curious about that.
00:34:16,087 --> 00:34:18,348
Speaker 1: So it's not really about my reaction.
00:34:18,489 --> 00:34:20,110
Speaker 1: I wasn't that.
00:34:21,664 --> 00:34:22,705
Speaker 1: surprised I mean.
00:34:22,745 --> 00:34:25,047
Speaker 1: I was expecting this to happen right like.
00:34:25,529 --> 00:34:53,054
Speaker 1: the main difference from Wasabi and Samurai from legal point of view was that we opened and read the letters that legal authorities were sending to us and they did not and we did not have a huge huge mouth in social media and trying to say like, hey please North Koreans come to us, please Russian or Uyghurs come to us.
00:34:53,114 --> 00:34:55,495
Speaker 1: So it wasn't much of a surprise.
00:34:55,514 --> 00:35:00,036
Speaker 1: What I was surprised about is that how the Wasabi people have handled this.
00:35:00,817 --> 00:35:10,506
Speaker 1: They You know, they should have not been surprised, but it eventually led to shutting down the ZK Snacks coordinator.
00:35:10,566 --> 00:35:14,508
Speaker 1: So I think that was surprising to me.
00:35:16,048 --> 00:35:16,589
Speaker 0: Yeah.
00:35:16,869 --> 00:35:17,769
Speaker 0: So, okay.
00:35:17,789 --> 00:35:23,772
Speaker 0: So you mentioned earlier that you have now been working with WasabiWallet for a few months.
00:35:23,792 --> 00:35:24,212
Speaker 0: Is that right?
00:35:26,734 --> 00:35:26,994
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:35:27,114 --> 00:35:28,795
Speaker 1: In December, I left.
00:35:29,375 --> 00:35:29,615
Speaker 0: Okay.
00:35:30,830 --> 00:35:40,133
Speaker 0: And then the recent decision to drop the coordinator side of Wasabi, I suppose was made by the team that's sort of still running it, right?
00:35:40,153 --> 00:35:42,734
Speaker 0: So who's running the project now?
00:35:42,774 --> 00:35:47,235
Speaker 0: I mean, pseudonymously speaking.
00:35:47,255 --> 00:35:54,697
Speaker 1: Yeah, so who's running the project?
00:35:54,898 --> 00:35:57,678
Speaker 1: So the thing is that there is no one project.
00:35:57,718 --> 00:35:58,939
Speaker 1: There are many projects.
00:36:00,359 --> 00:36:12,768
Speaker 1: I think we talked about this in our last conversation, but, you know, this was just speculation that if the ZK-SNX coordinator shuts down, the new coordinators are going to pop up.
00:36:12,788 --> 00:36:17,591
Speaker 1: And, you know, that's what happens to a crazy extent.
00:36:17,731 --> 00:36:28,118
Speaker 1: I mean, last time I counted 11 coordinators running one day after the Wasabi wallet has shut down.
00:36:29,605 --> 00:36:32,686
Speaker 1: What are the main coordinators here?
00:36:36,547 --> 00:36:40,668
Speaker 1: So first of all, no coordinator, Wasabi Wallet Software.
00:36:40,708 --> 00:36:42,829
Speaker 1: What happens to the Wasabi Wallet Software?
00:36:44,469 --> 00:36:53,252
Speaker 1: The ZKSmacks team have allocated money for a couple of developers to be comfortable there for a couple of years.
00:36:55,339 --> 00:36:58,221
Speaker 1: and they don't have to make money in that sense.
00:36:58,301 --> 00:37:01,042
Speaker 1: So they will keep developing the software, right?
00:37:02,163 --> 00:37:11,668
Speaker 1: But the coordinators, those have appeared, are interesting in some point of view.
00:37:12,529 --> 00:37:18,733
Speaker 1: So for one, the largest liquidity coordinator is a coordinator that takes zero fees.
00:37:19,693 --> 00:37:21,194
Speaker 1: It's Kru.
00:37:21,414 --> 00:37:33,231
Speaker 1: Kru was a... Kru was an extremely smart support person of all things in Wasabi Wallet.
00:37:33,731 --> 00:37:39,693
Speaker 1: I mean, but he was so smart that people were accusing him being me, right?
00:37:40,273 --> 00:37:41,513
Speaker 1: It's like my pseudonym.
00:37:41,673 --> 00:37:49,496
Speaker 1: So anyway, Kru is running a coordinator and it's zero fees, so it takes no fees.
00:37:50,176 --> 00:37:53,537
Speaker 1: Only the mining fees, of course, that cannot be avoided.
00:37:54,602 --> 00:37:56,744
Speaker 1: And that has the largest liquidity.
00:37:57,404 --> 00:38:08,814
Speaker 1: Now, the liquidity may be around maybe 5% of the Wasabi Wallet, what the ZK-SNX coordinator's liquidity was.
00:38:09,594 --> 00:38:12,537
Speaker 1: So that's what it is, but it's growing.
00:38:14,879 --> 00:38:33,916
Speaker 1: There is also another project, which is called Ginger Wallet, that's also from the from developers of Wasabi Wallet who did not agree with the decision of the management of shutting down the ZK Snooks coordinator.
00:38:34,697 --> 00:38:36,598
Speaker 1: That is called Ginger Wallet.
00:38:37,659 --> 00:38:50,006
Speaker 1: And, you know, one of the, or if not the most competent in terms of development, their marketing sucks because they are developers, of course.
00:38:50,847 --> 00:38:51,487
Speaker 1: Anyway, so.
00:38:52,463 --> 00:38:58,745
Speaker 1: So they are running this Ginger wallet, they created a fork, and they are going with that.
00:38:59,365 --> 00:39:07,508
Speaker 1: Now, there was one more interesting coordinator that popped up, which was Open Coordinator.
00:39:07,908 --> 00:39:09,509
Speaker 1: I think that's the name of it.
00:39:10,409 --> 00:39:23,844
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about the status of that project, but the The premise here is that anonymous people are running this open coordinator.
00:39:24,904 --> 00:39:37,230
Speaker 1: And of course, they are not blacklisting, not ruling out US customers, like not blocking them.
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:41,231
Speaker 1: And that's the open coordinator's idea.
00:39:41,311 --> 00:39:42,672
Speaker 1: So they are running anonymous.
00:39:43,376 --> 00:39:52,798
Speaker 1: The crew coordinator, he's also running a coordinator without any blacklisting and stuff.
00:39:54,218 --> 00:39:59,140
Speaker 1: His idea is that if he's not making money out of it, then he's probably safe.
00:40:00,460 --> 00:40:03,140
Speaker 1: And I hope that's the case.
00:40:04,021 --> 00:40:09,202
Speaker 1: The ginger wallet is more like the wasabi wallet, right?
00:40:09,262 --> 00:40:09,302
Speaker 1: No.
00:40:10,959 --> 00:40:15,541
Speaker 1: It's like they are doubling down on the blacklisting stuff, right?
00:40:15,561 --> 00:40:25,645
Speaker 1: So it's even a bit more worse from an idea future, right?
00:40:26,326 --> 00:40:31,128
Speaker 1: So that's the landscape today.
00:40:31,168 --> 00:40:31,868
Speaker 0: That's really interesting.
00:40:31,908 --> 00:40:44,076
Speaker 0: I just want to note how basically all strategic responses to this kind of, let's say, state attack Are are being expressed, right?
00:40:44,156 --> 00:40:47,838
Speaker 0: So, so, you know, the feds grab what's up.
00:40:47,999 --> 00:40:56,965
Speaker 0: That's grab samurai wallet devs, which by implicitly trends wasabi wallet, who has been, you know, let's say legally trend for years now.
00:40:57,785 --> 00:40:58,346
Speaker 0: And then.
00:40:59,967 --> 00:41:06,171
Speaker 0: You guys, you know, wasabi rolls back their coordinator, the wallet still works, but they, they shut down their coordinator.
00:41:06,656 --> 00:41:11,860
Speaker 0: And then what could you do to continue to explore this, let's say, tech tree of privacy?
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:17,644
Speaker 0: Well, you do a more censorious, let's say, coordinator.
00:41:17,704 --> 00:41:22,808
Speaker 0: No, that's like even more, let's say, white, like clear web, you know?
00:41:22,868 --> 00:41:24,549
Speaker 0: So let's say you go with the Ginger path, right?
00:41:24,569 --> 00:41:25,530
Speaker 0: Like more compliant.
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:32,695
Speaker 0: You go with like more open source, less compliant, super anonymous, you know, aka open coordinator.
00:41:33,155 --> 00:41:40,858
Speaker 0: And then you go with the middle of the road one, you know, which is just don't make money on it, which is a cruise version.
00:41:40,898 --> 00:41:41,098
Speaker 0: Right.
00:41:42,358 --> 00:41:43,679
Speaker 0: So it's really interesting.
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,740
Speaker 0: I mean, I think I think that's it's good that there's a few options in the market.
00:41:50,635 --> 00:41:52,856
Speaker 0: But yeah, I guess these are new companies.
00:41:52,896 --> 00:41:54,556
Speaker 0: I mean, these are new coordinators.
00:41:54,936 --> 00:41:56,016
Speaker 0: What are the trade-offs?
00:41:56,396 --> 00:42:10,020
Speaker 0: Like, for people that are listening to this, that are maybe considering using Wasabi Wallet, or let's say using any of these three, like let's say Ginger Wallet or something like that, what are the trade-offs at hand?
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:13,201
Speaker 0: Is there anything that a coordinator can do to harm the user?
00:42:16,401 --> 00:42:17,962
Speaker 1: So it's a good question.
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:21,762
Speaker 1: The short answer is, I'm not sure.
00:42:21,782 --> 00:42:28,626
Speaker 1: And the reason why I'm not sure is because we are talking about low liquidity right now.
00:42:28,866 --> 00:42:47,884
Speaker 1: And we just didn't think about low liquidity coordinators because when we were developing Wasabi 2.0, maybe there is no problem with that, but maybe there is some glaring glaring privacy leak.
00:42:48,064 --> 00:42:56,230
Speaker 1: It just introduces a bunch of uncertainty until the coordinator becomes, you know, have a very high liquidity.
00:42:57,130 --> 00:43:00,913
Speaker 1: So that would be the main trade-off from a user point of view.
00:43:01,353 --> 00:43:14,503
Speaker 1: But I would also like to grab the opportunity here to complain a bit about the current facade E-wallet development because recently they've done something that I am really not happy about.
00:43:16,454 --> 00:43:20,235
Speaker 1: which is the trade-off of the future of Bitcoin privacy.
00:43:20,736 --> 00:43:28,959
Speaker 1: So what they did is that, so in Wasabi Wallet, there is a limit.
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,741
Speaker 1: So the coordinator cannot cheat you.
00:43:33,602 --> 00:43:40,225
Speaker 1: There is a limit that the coordinator cannot take more money than X. So the coordinator cannot cheat you.
00:43:40,985 --> 00:44:19,826
Speaker 1: And what they did, the new contributors is that, they have lowered the limit by default to zero, meaning if someone odds the coordinator that is charging money to the Wasabi wallet that the person is using, then it is not going to coin join because the safety mechanism kicks in and it says that, hey, you cannot, you cannot make money, the coordinator cannot take money, so at all, right?
00:44:19,946 --> 00:44:25,951
Speaker 1: So that's another thing that the user have to do to increase the limit or whatnot.
00:44:26,111 --> 00:44:27,012
Speaker 0: And this is important.
00:44:27,032 --> 00:44:39,503
Speaker 0: So Wasabi Wallet has some setting that, like on the client side, by default, that determines whether or not the coordinator gets a fee for coordinating?
00:44:43,473 --> 00:44:48,315
Speaker 1: determines how much the coordinator can charge maximum, right?
00:44:49,095 --> 00:44:51,096
Speaker 1: And they remove that maximum limit.
00:44:51,196 --> 00:44:53,337
Speaker 1: I mean, they made it zero.
00:44:53,457 --> 00:44:55,998
Speaker 1: So they can charge zero percent.
00:44:56,798 --> 00:45:11,083
Speaker 1: And what's problematic this is for me is because, you know, like how can you expect for the software to kept being developed in the future for free?
00:45:12,374 --> 00:45:15,056
Speaker 1: So, I'm not happy about that.
00:45:16,217 --> 00:45:17,178
Speaker 0: That's interesting.
00:45:17,198 --> 00:45:22,802
Speaker 0: So, I think that explains why, let's say, there was something like Ginger that spun off, right?
00:45:23,402 --> 00:45:29,226
Speaker 0: That is a for-profit, you know, more compliant privacy solution, right?
00:45:29,546 --> 00:45:34,710
Speaker 0: And I think, you know, because they're like, well, you know what, there's a business model here if we just sort of comply harder, you know?
00:45:37,765 --> 00:45:41,626
Speaker 0: And then obviously I'm guessing that the Wasabi Wallet team are just like, you know what?
00:45:42,026 --> 00:45:46,608
Speaker 0: We can't risk appearing to make any money out of this, which is again, like.
00:45:46,628 --> 00:45:51,349
Speaker 0: this is part of the strategy of, of these sort of, let's say the authoritarian technocrats, right?
00:45:51,389 --> 00:45:57,591
Speaker 0: It's like they, they want to make sure privacy software is highly underfunded and is very, very difficult.
00:45:57,611 --> 00:45:58,991
Speaker 0: They're very risky to develop.
00:45:59,451 --> 00:46:08,591
Speaker 0: That's the whole like strategy, just, you know, scare people and make, you know, Maybe people now want to do this work, right?
00:46:11,453 --> 00:46:16,776
Speaker 1: So yeah, that would be the argument for it, right?
00:46:16,836 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: And I would even agree with that if that would have been their argument.
00:46:21,399 --> 00:46:23,761
Speaker 1: But that's not their argument.
00:46:23,861 --> 00:46:26,663
Speaker 1: It's something else.
00:46:26,723 --> 00:46:36,567
Speaker 1: It's like they want to reduce the trustness of the coordinator the trustlessness of the coordinator by default.
00:46:37,508 --> 00:46:42,190
Speaker 1: You know, this is the line of thinking and not the legal protection.
00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:48,953
Speaker 1: If it would have been a legal protection that they are aiming for that, then I'm like, okay, guys, go for it.
00:46:49,094 --> 00:46:51,015
Speaker 1: But that's not what they're trying to do.
00:46:51,035 --> 00:46:55,457
Speaker 0: So they think that there's like that fee introduces trust in some way?
00:46:55,477 --> 00:46:59,259
Speaker 0: Yes.
00:47:02,150 --> 00:47:04,091
Speaker 1: That's, that's what they think.
00:47:06,272 --> 00:47:06,712
Speaker 0: That's funny.
00:47:06,752 --> 00:47:09,933
Speaker 1: Cause now how the, I don't know.
00:47:11,253 --> 00:47:12,314
Speaker 1: That's a good question.
00:47:12,734 --> 00:47:14,875
Speaker 1: Maybe I should educate myself on that.
00:47:15,175 --> 00:47:20,997
Speaker 0: Well, we'll probably have, I don't think, I don't think there's any day few weeks and cause he's still a part of the team.
00:47:21,037 --> 00:47:21,177
Speaker 0: Right.
00:47:24,801 --> 00:47:31,527
Speaker 1: Um, there is no team, but, uh, yes, he's still in part, he's still wrapping up the operations.
00:47:31,588 --> 00:47:31,708
Speaker 0: Right.
00:47:32,668 --> 00:47:33,248
Speaker 0: Okay, cool.
00:47:33,288 --> 00:47:34,169
Speaker 0: So, okay.
00:47:34,189 --> 00:47:35,189
Speaker 0: So that's really interesting.
00:47:37,171 --> 00:47:41,013
Speaker 0: Well, I guess, you know, to be honest, I didn't know that you were not working with Wasabi.
00:47:41,073 --> 00:47:45,295
Speaker 0: So at this point, but I mean, you're still a subject matter expert.
00:47:45,835 --> 00:47:47,836
Speaker 0: What do you think about stealth addresses?
00:47:48,717 --> 00:47:51,118
Speaker 0: There's a big, you know, a big got merged recently.
00:47:51,138 --> 00:47:53,420
Speaker 0: A lot of wallets are looking at it.
00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:57,422
Speaker 0: It's, I mean, we had Joby.
00:48:00,054 --> 00:48:01,756
Speaker 0: Oh my God, Josie, Josie.
00:48:01,836 --> 00:48:05,699
Speaker 0: We had Josie on, uh, recently to, to discuss it.
00:48:05,739 --> 00:48:07,060
Speaker 0: And he gave us a really good download.
00:48:07,801 --> 00:48:09,022
Speaker 0: Um, yeah.
00:48:09,042 --> 00:48:11,024
Speaker 0: Where, where are you at on that line of tech?
00:48:13,767 --> 00:48:22,274
Speaker 1: So start addresses is something that's Peter came up in, in maybe 2013 or something like that.
00:48:23,536 --> 00:48:27,434
Speaker 1: And And what other similar things there are?
00:48:27,514 --> 00:48:30,516
Speaker 1: There is Monero's stat addresses, right?
00:48:31,417 --> 00:48:38,784
Speaker 1: There was Samurai's BIP47 payment codes, which was shit, no need to go into it.
00:48:38,844 --> 00:48:46,030
Speaker 1: But what you're asking here is the silent payments, which got a lot of buzz recently, right?
00:48:46,811 --> 00:48:56,300
Speaker 1: And I can only tell you what I know about the concept and I'm not familiar with the details and the implementation details here.
00:48:57,380 --> 00:49:22,615
Speaker 1: But the stack addresses is, I think it's very important to have at least this concept that I can send you money to a static address and what happens in the background is that I am sending you money some roundabout way, right?
00:49:23,316 --> 00:49:28,380
Speaker 1: But ultimately, it's not a privacy improvement.
00:49:31,562 --> 00:49:33,424
Speaker 1: It is a privacy improvement.
00:49:33,704 --> 00:49:44,758
Speaker 1: The only case that I found this to be a privacy improvement if you are using a static address because you are receiving donations, right?
00:49:45,539 --> 00:49:53,342
Speaker 1: In that case, it's a privacy improvement, but otherwise, it's a user experience improvement, and I think a very important one.
00:49:53,982 --> 00:50:04,886
Speaker 1: I don't know if the current implementation is the best, the silent payments, but I'm really happy that someone is at least trying to do something like that.
00:50:05,854 --> 00:50:06,634
Speaker 0: That's really interesting.
00:50:07,075 --> 00:50:08,375
Speaker 0: So, I mean, I agree.
00:50:08,575 --> 00:50:14,317
Speaker 0: I agree with like the idea that it's a, it's a, it's a great user experience improvement.
00:50:14,358 --> 00:50:16,058
Speaker 0: That's, I think that's very self-evident.
00:50:16,538 --> 00:50:30,184
Speaker 0: You know, we've been trying to fight this sort of tendency of people to reuse addresses and it's because they're used to having like static account numbers from the banking system probably, but also because it's easy to manage.
00:50:30,364 --> 00:50:30,564
Speaker 0: Right.
00:50:31,304 --> 00:50:42,868
Speaker 0: And, um, And so I think that the reusable address that actually preserves privacy is a huge UX, like it's solving a huge part of the privacy problems in something like Bitcoin.
00:50:44,529 --> 00:50:50,250
Speaker 0: But where do you see the privacy leak, right?
00:50:50,350 --> 00:50:52,931
Speaker 0: Is it on the spending side?
00:50:53,051 --> 00:50:56,972
Speaker 0: Like, why do you not consider it a privacy improvement?
00:50:57,232 --> 00:51:02,661
Speaker 0: or why are you, let's say, you know, hesitant to call it a privacy improvement.
00:51:05,283 --> 00:51:07,645
Speaker 1: So there is no privacy leak, right?
00:51:08,045 --> 00:51:15,631
Speaker 1: It's just there is no privacy improvement here other than a niche use case, which is called the donations.
00:51:18,534 --> 00:51:22,937
Speaker 1: The thing is that there is no mixing going on here.
00:51:23,017 --> 00:51:32,486
Speaker 1: There is no amount of fuscation going on here, and there is no Payjoin kind of stuff going on here.
00:51:32,867 --> 00:51:46,418
Speaker 1: It's just, it's just, hey, I can now send you money to a static address, but it's still happening on the blockchain and with the same ramifications as a normal Bitcoin transaction.
00:51:47,486 --> 00:51:50,827
Speaker 1: But you might know more about the silent payments.
00:51:50,887 --> 00:51:55,429
Speaker 1: They might have implemented some mixing into it.
00:51:55,489 --> 00:51:56,069
Speaker 0: There's no mixing.
00:51:56,409 --> 00:52:00,851
Speaker 0: As far as I know, on the silent payment implementation, there is no mixing.
00:52:01,271 --> 00:52:10,154
Speaker 0: But it obfuscates who receives the output, who receives the Bitcoin.
00:52:11,234 --> 00:52:16,636
Speaker 0: And then it obfuscates that side of things from the public eye, right?
00:52:19,633 --> 00:52:24,496
Speaker 0: But on the other side, you have all these sort of UTXOs, right?
00:52:24,516 --> 00:52:26,317
Speaker 0: On the receiving side, you have all these UTXOs.
00:52:26,838 --> 00:52:40,173
Speaker 0: And if you have, let's say, two different stealth addresses and you mix the UTXOs that when you spend, then you're kind of connecting those two and you're sort of They're no longer separated and difficult to identify.
00:52:40,573 --> 00:52:45,356
Speaker 0: I'm not sure on, I mean, I think it's a good topic.
00:52:45,396 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 0: Maybe we can have a call in the future and bring Josie on and have kind of like a bit of a powwow about what it does.
00:52:51,939 --> 00:52:59,502
Speaker 0: But I kind of, I hear you on, you're saying that there's no obvious privacy leak, but it's not a huge improvement either.
00:52:59,542 --> 00:53:01,623
Speaker 0: Like it's not, you don't consider it.
00:53:03,542 --> 00:53:06,663
Speaker 0: you don't think it's better than CoinJoin, right?
00:53:06,683 --> 00:53:13,465
Speaker 0: Like it's still, it's not superior to CoinJoin, it's just better than address reuse, like default address, normal address reuse.
00:53:14,006 --> 00:53:14,466
Speaker 0: Is that right?
00:53:15,746 --> 00:53:18,847
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not even in the same ballpark, right?
00:53:19,107 --> 00:53:29,311
Speaker 1: It's, you know, how many times are you publishing the Bitcoin address to the public where you wanna receive?
00:53:29,551 --> 00:53:32,812
Speaker 1: If I wanna send you a transaction, then you are giving it to me.
00:53:33,732 --> 00:53:34,892
Speaker 1: all right, directly.
00:53:36,273 --> 00:53:43,575
Speaker 1: So if I want to donate to you, then you have to publish something where I can donate.
00:53:43,955 --> 00:53:47,436
Speaker 1: Now in that case, it's a strict privacy improvement.
00:53:47,476 --> 00:53:48,577
Speaker 1: in that case, yes.
00:53:49,557 --> 00:53:50,517
Speaker 1: That's a niche case.
00:53:50,738 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: That's not how people use money most of the times.
00:53:55,695 --> 00:53:55,955
Speaker 0: Right.
00:53:56,715 --> 00:53:59,777
Speaker 0: So the donation use case is definitely improved.
00:54:00,877 --> 00:54:18,904
Speaker 0: I see just thinking about the conversation I had with Josie, thinking about some of the conversations that I've been seeing around this, for example, BlueMath sort of like DNS resolver for Bitcoin addresses.
00:54:19,324 --> 00:54:22,705
Speaker 0: This is something that the BlueMath core developer is working on to like.
00:54:23,065 --> 00:54:37,693
Speaker 0: make it so you can basically like you know, resolve to, let's say, a stealth address from a domain name, you know, in a more like a, you know, less trusted way than, than let's say, Lightning URL or something like that, like something a little bit more robust.
00:54:38,214 --> 00:54:50,241
Speaker 0: It won't be perfect from a privacy perspective, but it'll, I think, I think what we're seeing in the payments world, and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but like what I'm seeing in the payments world is people like having static IDs for payments.
00:54:50,881 --> 00:54:53,342
Speaker 0: They like having like just like pay to my name.
00:54:53,562 --> 00:54:55,963
Speaker 0: You know, we're seeing it in Primal.net.
00:54:56,083 --> 00:54:58,844
Speaker 0: We're seeing it in a variety of different payment apps.
00:54:58,924 --> 00:55:02,606
Speaker 0: A lot of the banking apps are sort of moving in that direction as well.
00:55:02,686 --> 00:55:13,977
Speaker 0: For example, One of the most popular, I think we talked about this last time, one of the most popular Colombian payments apps uses your phone number as your kind of ID, as your sort of account number.
00:55:14,437 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 0: And then they sort of credit your account based on your phone number.
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,903
Speaker 0: And so it's something that people, it's already on people's contacts lists.
00:55:22,463 --> 00:55:24,665
Speaker 0: And therefore, it's ready on their network graph.
00:55:24,925 --> 00:55:29,529
Speaker 0: So it's easy for them to go on their phone, look up somebody's name, and the data is already there.
00:55:29,870 --> 00:55:34,614
Speaker 0: And you don't have to scan a QR code, you don't have to like, get a fresh address from them, right.
00:55:35,395 --> 00:55:42,441
Speaker 0: And, and that's a, that's a very comfortable user experience that I think the payments world is sort of converging towards.
00:55:44,162 --> 00:55:45,343
Speaker 0: Which stealth addresses solve?
00:55:46,613 --> 00:55:49,575
Speaker 0: even outside of the donation space, right?
00:55:49,595 --> 00:55:50,836
Speaker 0: Like the public donation space.
00:55:51,097 --> 00:55:57,722
Speaker 0: Because one of the issues with Bitcoin is you give somebody a public address, even if it's a new public address, they send you money.
00:55:59,223 --> 00:56:11,186
Speaker 0: But then if you move the money, if you spend from that UTXO, an amount larger than the one that they sent you, then it'll pull in other UTXOs.
00:56:11,227 --> 00:56:14,030
Speaker 0: And so it'll reveal that how much more you potentially have.
00:56:14,110 --> 00:56:14,290
Speaker 0: Right.
00:56:14,931 --> 00:56:26,903
Speaker 0: And and if you're a more sophisticated observer, you can you know, you can potentially grab graph that on like something like chain analysis and you can start like, you know, looking at all the connections, right?
00:56:27,003 --> 00:56:28,604
Speaker 0: And it's actually not that difficult, right?
00:56:28,624 --> 00:56:42,096
Speaker 0: Like as a journalist, you know, and reporter, I've done like basic chain analysis on addresses just to go and, you know, find out if, if, if what the, what the party is saying kind of makes sense.
00:56:42,216 --> 00:56:42,396
Speaker 0: Right.
00:56:43,017 --> 00:56:47,922
Speaker 0: So, um, Does that make sense?
00:56:47,942 --> 00:56:48,863
Speaker 0: Does that argument make sense?
00:56:48,883 --> 00:56:54,545
Speaker 0: Like, for example, in private, instead of me just giving you a public address, I'm giving you a stealth address.
00:56:57,406 --> 00:56:58,666
Speaker 0: That's a privacy improvement, no?
00:57:02,488 --> 00:57:02,748
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:57:02,888 --> 00:57:03,668
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely.
00:57:04,569 --> 00:57:04,929
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:57:04,949 --> 00:57:05,689
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:57:05,769 --> 00:57:06,889
Speaker 1: I have a good story here.
00:57:06,949 --> 00:57:17,507
Speaker 1: So I've seen, um, I wanted to say yes, but I've seen like it was a real use case here that Monero is also using the stat addresses.
00:57:17,567 --> 00:57:29,474
Speaker 1: I think it's an unfair critique, but one Monero user at least was posting his stat address with his darknet identity.
00:57:29,534 --> 00:57:34,697
Speaker 1: And then he was posting the same stat address with his real identity as well.
00:57:35,637 --> 00:57:38,199
Speaker 1: Because Monero is completely anonymous.
00:57:38,703 --> 00:57:42,344
Speaker 1: And that's how we got de-anonymized, which was kind of funny.
00:57:43,284 --> 00:57:48,386
Speaker 1: There is this niche thing here, but I think it's not.
00:57:48,586 --> 00:57:50,046
Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about that.
00:57:50,106 --> 00:58:06,014
Speaker 0: I think that's actually a really good point because one of the trade-offs that we discussed with Josie was that again, like I just mentioned it, but like, I think this is where we need to sort of discuss a little bit more, um, on the spending side of things, right?
00:58:06,374 --> 00:58:13,056
Speaker 0: If you have, again, obviously if you're posting the same name on your, with your KYC social media and you're on KYC social media, right?
00:58:13,436 --> 00:58:22,059
Speaker 0: Like if you're, you're, you're sharing it with your legal name on Facebook, and then you're also putting the same, the same stealth address on Twitter with your name, right?
00:58:22,459 --> 00:58:23,819
Speaker 0: You're kind of doxing yourself.
00:58:23,899 --> 00:58:24,020
Speaker 0: Right?
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 0: So, And that's not like an on-chain level attack.
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,582
Speaker 0: That's just like you just telling people who you are, right?
00:58:32,163 --> 00:58:37,567
Speaker 0: And so what you would need to do there is to have two separate stealth addresses, right?
00:58:38,067 --> 00:58:40,529
Speaker 0: But then you have another problem afterwards, right?
00:58:40,569 --> 00:58:45,372
Speaker 0: So you have like your Facebook stealth address, and then you have your Twitter stealth address.
00:58:45,873 --> 00:58:47,374
Speaker 0: And on Twitter, you're Anonymous Cat.
00:58:47,594 --> 00:58:50,596
Speaker 0: And then on Facebook, you're Bob, you know, whatever, right?
00:58:51,217 --> 00:58:52,678
Speaker 0: And I was going to say Bob Ross, right?
00:58:52,718 --> 00:58:53,318
Speaker 0: The artist, right?
00:58:53,579 --> 00:58:53,819
Speaker 0: Okay.
00:58:54,059 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 0: So it's Bob Ross and Anonymous Cat.
00:58:56,121 --> 00:59:06,212
Speaker 0: And then you get payments on both, but then if you're using the same wallet and you spend at some point, you might mix the coins there.
00:59:06,232 --> 00:59:10,396
Speaker 0: And as far as I understood with my conversation with Josie, that could actually like dox you.
00:59:10,456 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 0: Like that could actually like create a link between those two on chain.
00:59:14,861 --> 00:59:17,444
Speaker 0: And so you actually have to keep those segregated.
00:59:17,484 --> 00:59:24,272
Speaker 0: So you would need to, like, again, mix them in some way or, I don't know, do some coin management on the other end.
00:59:25,253 --> 00:59:34,164
Speaker 0: I'm not sure if you know how, if you're familiar with the spec, but I think that that is an area where there's still sort of development that's sort of needed.
00:59:37,677 --> 00:59:44,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's not forget that these kind of things are happening in Bitcoin as it is right now.
00:59:44,439 --> 00:59:49,300
Speaker 1: Like there is another story since we were talking about TDEV here.
00:59:50,061 --> 01:00:01,044
Speaker 1: He, before, when they launched Samurai, then he had a couple of memes and there was a Bitcoin giveaway on Reddit.
01:00:01,804 --> 01:00:16,743
Speaker 1: And what he did is that his subcorp And his own account was posting Bitcoin address to the same Reddit thread so he can get multiple times the Bitcoin giveaway.
01:00:16,803 --> 01:00:23,624
Speaker 1: But what you could see there is that they were spending from the same wallet together.
01:00:23,644 --> 01:00:33,226
Speaker 1: So you were able to establish that, oh, it's actually a cup of tea there because the two address were in the same wallet.
01:00:33,366 --> 01:00:33,426
Speaker 0: Wow.
01:00:35,455 --> 01:00:36,175
Speaker 0: That's too funny.
01:00:36,435 --> 01:00:43,697
Speaker 0: I mean, it's, it's for somebody that, you know, like if TDEV is messing it up, you know, what hope do we have?
01:00:43,757 --> 01:00:43,977
Speaker 0: Right.
01:00:45,737 --> 01:00:46,198
Speaker 0: No, I think.
01:00:46,278 --> 01:00:50,739
Speaker 1: I mean, Luke has lost a bunch of bitcoins.
01:00:50,859 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 0: So if he's losing it, well, I mean, the Luke junior, the Luke junior case is really interesting.
01:00:58,580 --> 01:01:02,961
Speaker 0: And I, like I mentioned them in my speech on self custody, which you guys can go check out on my Twitter feed.
01:01:03,021 --> 01:01:05,022
Speaker 0: It's been to the top, but.
01:01:07,469 --> 01:01:18,374
Speaker 0: He had a wallet.dat file encrypted with his PGP somewhere on his server, which had a public facing front where you could go and look at data that he publishes on note count and stuff.
01:01:18,394 --> 01:01:34,079
Speaker 0: So he had an online exposed server that had some loose connection, probably highly paranoid, but still loose connection to an encrypted PGP key that, you know, At the end of the day, PGP is a hot system, right?
01:01:34,099 --> 01:01:38,923
Speaker 0: I mean, unless you do some sort of, I don't know, UB key setup or something.
01:01:39,043 --> 01:01:43,966
Speaker 0: I don't even know how you would like cold store the private keys to a PGP key.
01:01:44,006 --> 01:01:46,829
Speaker 0: I don't know if that's, I don't know if the technology for that even exists.
01:01:47,729 --> 01:01:52,713
Speaker 0: So he had a wallet.dat file on a server at the bottom line that was exposed to the internet.
01:01:53,393 --> 01:02:00,699
Speaker 0: And to me, the lesson there is like, if not even Luke can keep that secure, then there's just no way to keep it secure, right?
01:02:01,457 --> 01:02:03,697
Speaker 0: You just gotta have, like, you just gotta do risk management.
01:02:03,918 --> 01:02:17,060
Speaker 0: You have a cold wallet that's got less money than your hot, sorry, you have a hot wallet that's got less money than your cold wallet, and you do your best to mitigate the attacks there, but you just, you gotta accept that there's a risk involved, right?
01:02:19,381 --> 01:02:21,621
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just keep our money with Coinbase.
01:02:23,062 --> 01:02:26,162
Speaker 0: I mean, I could see Coinbase getting hacked.
01:02:26,202 --> 01:02:27,823
Speaker 0: They're so incompetent, it's incredible.
01:02:27,843 --> 01:02:29,783
Speaker 0: They haven't figured out lighting.
01:02:30,250 --> 01:02:32,591
Speaker 0: You know, and like lightning is hard, but it's not that hard, you know?
01:02:33,192 --> 01:02:35,773
Speaker 0: So, uh, I don't even know if I would trust Coinbase with my money.
01:02:35,813 --> 01:02:38,435
Speaker 0: I mean, that would be like a kind of, a kind of classic scenario.
01:02:38,475 --> 01:02:41,076
Speaker 0: If Coinbase got hacked, they're probably too big to hack at this point.
01:02:41,116 --> 01:02:44,558
Speaker 0: Cause you know, you, how would you even hide that kind of money?
01:02:44,638 --> 01:02:44,818
Speaker 0: Right.
01:02:45,159 --> 01:02:48,581
Speaker 0: Like if you go high, like how much money, how much Bitcoin does Coinbase have?
01:02:48,621 --> 01:02:52,803
Speaker 0: Like probably a million Bitcoins at this point, if you count all the ETF stuff.
01:02:54,024 --> 01:02:56,545
Speaker 0: So, um, I don't even know how you mix that.
01:02:57,746 --> 01:02:59,527
Speaker 0: Like, there's just no way to hide that.
01:03:01,653 --> 01:03:04,755
Speaker 0: But that's interesting.
01:03:04,795 --> 01:03:07,577
Speaker 0: Security by lack of obscurity.
01:03:08,377 --> 01:03:10,799
Speaker 0: You know, like we can all see where the money is.
01:03:14,621 --> 01:03:15,602
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:03:15,902 --> 01:03:25,829
Speaker 1: You know, I do remember at one point hearing about Coinbase security setup and to be honest, I was impressed.
01:03:25,889 --> 01:03:34,347
Speaker 1: I don't remember what was it, but It was distributed in some roundabout way or I don't know what, but it was impressive.
01:03:34,687 --> 01:03:35,007
Speaker 0: Yeah.
01:03:35,247 --> 01:03:39,050
Speaker 0: It is probably like a distributed multisig or distributed setup of some sort.
01:03:40,771 --> 01:03:41,912
Speaker 0: Um, okay.
01:03:42,092 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 0: And so where, is there anything that you're seeing on the Bitcoin privacy tech that you find optimistic that you think it's, it's worth exploring more or considering more?
01:03:59,586 --> 01:04:01,307
Speaker 1: Um, it's a good question.
01:04:01,327 --> 01:04:11,332
Speaker 1: So, I don't know much about these E-cash stuff.
01:04:12,312 --> 01:04:19,916
Speaker 1: I mean, I know a lot about E-cash, but I don't know much about these cashew nuts and whatnot.
01:04:20,156 --> 01:04:22,297
Speaker 1: They are very heavy on Twitter and stuff.
01:04:22,758 --> 01:04:25,119
Speaker 1: So they are trying to build an E-cash system.
01:04:26,608 --> 01:04:28,229
Speaker 1: or built an e-cash system.
01:04:28,289 --> 01:04:40,818
Speaker 1: And I think that's super exciting because even though it's custodial, it can create a level of anonymity that's unheard of in the online space.
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:48,362
Speaker 1: Only cash can be better than that, right?
01:04:48,563 --> 01:04:53,486
Speaker 1: And with a perfect user experience because it's also completely centralized.
01:04:54,575 --> 01:05:01,802
Speaker 1: I am excited about what they are doing, but I don't exactly know what they are doing.
01:05:02,383 --> 01:05:14,274
Speaker 1: Last time, so when we were working on Wasabi Wallet 2.0, I have read all the research papers that came out about e-cash stuff.
01:05:16,656 --> 01:05:30,041
Speaker 1: You know, the last research papers, those were coming out in 2018 and stuff, they were the only ones, those have mitigated some very serious user experience problems.
01:05:30,822 --> 01:05:41,286
Speaker 1: And I suspect the Cashew nuts guides are not that advanced, right?
01:05:42,907 --> 01:05:48,483
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, but yeah, I think that's, That's pretty much the only thing.
01:05:48,543 --> 01:05:57,751
Speaker 1: besides what's going to happen with Wasabi now, is what matters for Bitcoin privacy at this point.
01:05:57,972 --> 01:06:11,203
Speaker 1: Otherwise, there is a huge chilling effect and no one wants to touch privacy from them, because privacy developers are getting criminalized left and right, so it's unfortunate.
01:06:11,263 --> 01:06:13,544
Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a shilling effect.
01:06:14,064 --> 01:06:15,264
Speaker 0: I am seeing development.
01:06:15,284 --> 01:06:20,807
Speaker 0: I mean, I think we're seeing, I think the stealth addresses is, you know, a good sign.
01:06:21,207 --> 01:06:31,313
Speaker 0: There's also the PayJoin is getting some upgrades because there are some like coordination issues with PayJoin that that were like holding it back.
01:06:31,874 --> 01:06:46,907
Speaker 0: But I think I've seen a couple of podcasts recently with developers that are doing pay join stuff, but definitely like the coin mixing path is you know, I think it's still, it's kind of up in the air, right?
01:06:46,927 --> 01:06:51,088
Speaker 0: Because again, you got Samurai down and then Wasabi sort of down as well.
01:06:51,128 --> 01:07:04,893
Speaker 0: And now you've got this sort of other coordinators, all of which, if you added it, their liquidity together, you probably wouldn't be able to put together that sum up even like half of what, you know, Wasabi used to have or Samurai had.
01:07:04,933 --> 01:07:12,775
Speaker 0: So from a, from a liquidity and anonymity set perspective, it's been basically knocked down, right?
01:07:13,155 --> 01:07:13,896
Speaker 0: as a tech tree.
01:07:14,636 --> 01:07:17,559
Speaker 0: I don't know.
01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:21,322
Speaker 0: And I mean, I like eCash.
01:07:22,043 --> 01:07:23,624
Speaker 0: We've had a few conversations about eCash.
01:07:23,664 --> 01:07:26,306
Speaker 0: We had Moon Settler on recently.
01:07:26,366 --> 01:07:34,533
Speaker 0: That podcast is already live on the feeds, on the Juan Galt show, if you look it up again on any app, right, on any podcasting app.
01:07:34,913 --> 01:07:38,656
Speaker 0: So that conversation, I mean, we went deep into that.
01:07:38,676 --> 01:07:40,644
Speaker 0: I think I like eCash.
01:07:40,684 --> 01:07:42,105
Speaker 0: I think eCash has a lot of potential.
01:07:42,145 --> 01:07:44,626
Speaker 0: It's really too bad that it has this custody tradeoff.
01:07:44,687 --> 01:07:48,469
Speaker 0: And the thing that concerns me about eCash is like the history of Bitcoin.
01:07:48,489 --> 01:07:53,093
Speaker 0: Like Bitcoin was created in part because eCash failed.
01:07:54,154 --> 01:07:55,595
Speaker 0: And it didn't fail.
01:07:55,755 --> 01:08:01,459
Speaker 0: It didn't necessarily fail because of state hostility, even though there's some examples where it failed because of it.
01:08:01,479 --> 01:08:16,707
Speaker 0: Like, I think that as far as I understand, some of these sort of like Bitcoin and early sort of but like cyberpunk digital money banks got shut down by the feds and their treasuries got confiscated.
01:08:17,229 --> 01:08:24,511
Speaker 0: But in the case of like David Choms sort of DigiCash, he actually just dropped the ball.
01:08:24,571 --> 01:08:29,993
Speaker 0: Like he had the opportunity to have DigiCash installed, pre-installed in default Windows.
01:08:30,912 --> 01:08:46,634
Speaker 0: You know, like Microsoft offered him I think it was like five million, $50 million or something to like license DigiCash and get eCash installed on by default, be the default money system to every Windows client.
01:08:46,714 --> 01:08:49,397
Speaker 0: And then that will have like some connection to a bank account somewhere.
01:08:49,477 --> 01:08:49,638
Speaker 0: Right.
01:08:50,138 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 0: So like you'd be using.
01:08:52,830 --> 01:08:56,852
Speaker 1: That would be a really different world right now.
01:08:57,332 --> 01:08:58,013
Speaker 0: I agree.
01:08:58,353 --> 01:09:00,154
Speaker 0: And you know what, you know what David Chum said?
01:09:00,234 --> 01:09:06,178
Speaker 0: He was like, no, I'll give me $2 for, for windows copy you sell.
01:09:06,298 --> 01:09:08,560
Speaker 0: And I'll, I licensed the deal.
01:09:08,939 --> 01:09:13,142
Speaker 0: So he like, you know, that was his counter.
01:09:13,362 --> 01:09:16,044
Speaker 0: And, uh, and, and obviously Microsoft was like, no, thanks.
01:09:17,185 --> 01:09:27,468
Speaker 0: Um, And now, you know, and the credit card system just took off like the Visa MasterCard payment flow dominated after that.
01:09:27,508 --> 01:09:30,890
Speaker 0: So like that was basically the peak and fall of DigiCash.
01:09:31,290 --> 01:09:32,149
Speaker 0: But that wasn't like.
01:09:32,210 --> 01:09:34,411
Speaker 0: that wasn't like the state going after DigiCash.
01:09:34,430 --> 01:09:34,992
Speaker 0: That was just.
01:09:37,033 --> 01:09:37,693
Speaker 0: That was just bad.
01:09:38,424 --> 01:09:41,086
Speaker 0: decision-making by the top dog, right?
01:09:41,645 --> 01:09:48,211
Speaker 0: So maybe there's a way, do you see a way in which Bitcoin- This space was downloaded via spacesdown.com.
01:09:48,411 --> 01:09:50,152
Speaker 1: Visit to download your spaces today.
01:09:50,292 --> 01:09:53,935
Speaker 0: This thing makes DigiCash more viable.
01:09:55,456 --> 01:10:07,824
Speaker 0: Like, is there any obvious improvement that Bitcoin, the decentralized sort of platform network protocol, adds to DigiCash that DigiCash didn't already have?
01:10:07,824 --> 01:10:09,065
Speaker 0: 20 years ago?
01:10:11,807 --> 01:10:12,608
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
01:10:12,628 --> 01:10:14,409
Speaker 1: The uninflatability, right?
01:10:14,469 --> 01:10:25,336
Speaker 1: Like if you do DigiCash like 30 years ago or 50 years ago, then there must be a denomination there.
01:10:25,376 --> 01:10:27,297
Speaker 1: And what's going to be the denomination?
01:10:27,357 --> 01:10:28,718
Speaker 1: Well, it's going to be the U.S.
01:10:28,758 --> 01:10:29,699
Speaker 1: dollar probably.
01:10:30,279 --> 01:10:32,560
Speaker 1: Well, now it doesn't have to be the U.S.
01:10:32,580 --> 01:10:32,961
Speaker 1: dollar.
01:10:33,021 --> 01:10:35,022
Speaker 1: It can be an uninflatable currency.
01:10:36,069 --> 01:10:36,629
Speaker 1: Bitcoin.
01:10:37,350 --> 01:10:40,191
Speaker 1: So that's an obvious improvement.
01:10:40,631 --> 01:10:54,819
Speaker 1: But now that you mentioned that you were talking about E-cash before with someone high on E-cash, I'm really curious, what's the regulatory strategy or thinking there?
01:10:54,899 --> 01:11:12,196
Speaker 1: Because one of the reasons that I was not interested in E-cash was because, you know, you have full custody over the funds and there is no way an anonymous payment system with full custody over the funds is going to fly.
01:11:12,876 --> 01:11:27,042
Speaker 1: So now that we see that even anonymous payment systems like Wasabi without custody over the funds is not flying, then what the hell are those guys are thinking?
01:11:27,443 --> 01:11:29,984
Speaker 0: I think that's the elephant in the room.
01:11:30,004 --> 01:11:32,305
Speaker 0: That's definitely one of the elephants in the room anyway.
01:11:33,644 --> 01:11:35,004
Speaker 0: It's not like.
01:11:35,204 --> 01:11:38,185
Speaker 0: as far as I can tell, their thinking was.
01:11:39,325 --> 01:11:44,787
Speaker 0: So there's two base, there's two main branches of of Bitcoin eCash.
01:11:45,327 --> 01:11:47,727
Speaker 0: There's Cashew and there's FediMint.
01:11:48,347 --> 01:11:50,928
Speaker 0: FediMint is a federation.
01:11:52,308 --> 01:11:55,289
Speaker 0: That they believe can be distributed enough.
01:11:56,311 --> 01:11:58,894
Speaker 0: to be considered decentralized.
01:11:59,314 --> 01:12:02,178
Speaker 0: And it's also like a platform for federations.
01:12:02,218 --> 01:12:12,209
Speaker 0: So they're building like a multi-sig federation software that they can eventually deploy.
01:12:12,749 --> 01:12:16,073
Speaker 0: I don't know if I think it's already live, but it seems to be kind of like in closed beta.
01:12:17,751 --> 01:12:25,595
Speaker 0: The idea is like anybody can start a federation and here's all the tools that you need and they're optimizing those tools because there's all kinds of problems in that.
01:12:25,635 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 0: Like one of the problems is if somebody, if one of your federation members decides that they don't want to play ball anymore or I don't know, gets hit by a truck.
01:12:34,420 --> 01:12:35,281
Speaker 0: their key.
01:12:35,581 --> 01:12:51,890
Speaker 0: rotating their key out of the out of the treasury is actually a pain in the ass because you got to like consolidate UTXOs do an on-chain spend and do your like do your multi-sig setup again and apparently there's other issues involved because you have this infrastructure on top.
01:12:51,910 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 0: so you have to like basically start a new mint in the current structure, but I think they're solving that with music, I believe.
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:04,605
Speaker 0: So it's like they're finding ways to do key rotation without resetting the mint, right?
01:13:06,806 --> 01:13:11,470
Speaker 0: So, okay, so that's the multisig, Feddy Mint side of things.
01:13:11,950 --> 01:13:14,552
Speaker 0: And I think their hopes is that they'll be decentralized enough.
01:13:15,813 --> 01:13:16,774
Speaker 0: I have my doubts, right?
01:13:17,435 --> 01:13:18,315
Speaker 0: But we'll see, right?
01:13:18,355 --> 01:13:20,937
Speaker 0: We'll see how big, because one of the things is on-chain.
01:13:20,957 --> 01:13:34,026
Speaker 0: multisig has a hard limit of like 15, signers based on on-chain block space, I believe, whereas MuSig style multi-sig can do much bigger sets.
01:13:34,787 --> 01:13:39,850
Speaker 0: So if you could have like, I don't know, 300 people on a multi-sig, maybe it's decentralized enough, right?
01:13:40,511 --> 01:13:45,274
Speaker 0: Maybe you could potentially have a decentralized enough federation.
01:13:45,314 --> 01:13:50,277
Speaker 0: So I think that's the way that multi-sig is going in general, and I think that's their thinking.
01:13:50,738 --> 01:13:55,481
Speaker 0: But again, it seems like it was a pre-Samurai strategy, right?
01:13:55,801 --> 01:13:57,803
Speaker 0: A pre-samurai crackdown strategy, right?
01:13:58,283 --> 01:14:01,626
Speaker 0: And then the cashew guys, their mindset is like, well, you know what?
01:14:02,027 --> 01:14:11,315
Speaker 0: We're going to have, we're going to make it so easy to spin a mint up that there's going to be 10,000 mints and they're all going to be interoperable through e-cash and lightning.
01:14:12,295 --> 01:14:17,560
Speaker 0: And I think that's, I honestly, I find it naive.
01:14:17,700 --> 01:14:26,317
Speaker 0: I think like, not only do you have to be willing to run an e-cash mint, But you have to be able to run, you have to be capable enough to run a lighting node.
01:14:27,218 --> 01:14:36,126
Speaker 0: And that's just gonna, that means that the people that are gonna be motivated to that are gonna be either ideologically aligned or trying to scam people.
01:14:38,207 --> 01:14:43,472
Speaker 0: And the people that are gonna be ideologically aligned, they eventually run out of money.
01:14:44,574 --> 01:14:46,055
Speaker 0: to be ideologically aligned.
01:14:46,135 --> 01:14:48,717
Speaker 0: And so they their quality were degraded.
01:14:48,817 --> 01:14:51,940
Speaker 0: And then the people that are trying to scam, they're just going to scam.
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 0: Right.
01:14:52,220 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 0: And what's the scam?
01:14:52,940 --> 01:14:56,363
Speaker 0: Well, they are going to have custody of the underlying of the of the e-cash they're minting.
01:14:56,383 --> 01:15:02,792
Speaker 0: So they're going to be like doing like fractional reserve digital like Bitcoin e-cash and eventually probably rug.
01:15:03,093 --> 01:15:03,733
Speaker 0: So I don't know.
01:15:03,873 --> 01:15:07,775
Speaker 0: Maybe some of them, some honest players will emerge and be able to sustain themselves.
01:15:07,855 --> 01:15:10,176
Speaker 0: But I think I think it does beg the question.
01:15:10,216 --> 01:15:18,341
Speaker 0: I think the more likely scenario is actually you're going to have like KYC Bitcoin banks and meet emit e-cash.
01:15:19,581 --> 01:15:24,444
Speaker 0: That, you know, and they're just going to have like an e-cash layer, so you're going to be KYC with them.
01:15:25,267 --> 01:15:31,612
Speaker 0: but on the public, but your payments are not gonna be exposed to the public on a non-chain layer.
01:15:31,652 --> 01:15:39,758
Speaker 0: So you're gonna get like privacy from non-state attackers, but you're not gonna get privacy from state attackers.
01:15:40,338 --> 01:15:51,286
Speaker 0: I think that's a very obvious sort of line of like tech development, like a tech tree, because that's what the banking system has achieved, right?
01:15:51,326 --> 01:15:56,287
Speaker 0: Like the banking system has, Privacy against non-state attackers, right?
01:15:56,308 --> 01:16:03,415
Speaker 0: Like if you know, it's it's not trivial for me to know how much money is on your bank account But it is trivial for the state to know right.
01:16:03,435 --> 01:16:04,616
Speaker 0: so they have backdoor access.
01:16:04,656 --> 01:16:27,425
Speaker 0: and I think that's that's my thinking on where this is gonna go, but Where I have some hope on this front and where I guess I'm curious maybe to brainstorm with you is, I think there's probably a way to like, like if we had remotely functional or if we had like a slightly more, even maybe with the script that we have today on Bitcoin.
01:16:27,465 --> 01:16:36,213
Speaker 0: actually, because I think we're discovering that the Bitcoin script is actually more malleable and powerful than we realized, you know, thanks to all the shit coins that are launching on Bitcoin, right?
01:16:36,513 --> 01:16:39,075
Speaker 0: Like we're realizing actually some of these stuff is very powerful.
01:16:40,056 --> 01:16:57,302
Speaker 0: Could you not build some sort of like, this like on chain, some sort of smart contract, quote unquote, that restricts the ability of a mint to rug pull their users, right?
01:16:57,722 --> 01:16:59,883
Speaker 0: Like the fundamental problem here is the custody, right?
01:16:59,923 --> 01:17:01,504
Speaker 0: So can we restrict the custody?
01:17:02,204 --> 01:17:13,741
Speaker 0: And I'm thinking with the current tools, we can probably create some really complicated and convoluted sort of structure where the mint can only move 20 percent of the funds a month.
01:17:14,301 --> 01:17:19,743
Speaker 0: You know, like if you have a thousand Bitcoin on it, they're all on a time lock, on a rolling time lock.
01:17:20,403 --> 01:17:22,404
Speaker 0: And like you can only move 20 percent a month.
01:17:22,464 --> 01:17:32,367
Speaker 0: And so if if the mint does something sketchy, you can get a bank run on it and and, you know, it'll get at least will be it'll be highly visible.
01:17:32,447 --> 01:17:32,608
Speaker 0: Right.
01:17:34,727 --> 01:17:41,150
Speaker 0: You know, like the ideal would be, would be some sort of, you know, something like Tornado Cash, right?
01:17:41,790 --> 01:17:52,915
Speaker 0: Like Tornado Cash is still running despite their devs being arrested and given like decades in prison or something like that.
01:17:54,256 --> 01:17:57,457
Speaker 0: It still runs and apparently it makes more fees than Monero.
01:17:59,008 --> 01:18:01,510
Speaker 0: today, despite having no devs on it.
01:18:01,910 --> 01:18:12,777
Speaker 0: And it's doing that because Ethereum, despite being incredibly centralized, has enough of a scripting language to run, you know.
01:18:15,683 --> 01:18:22,526
Speaker 0: So, like, the Feds have to literally go and take down Ethereum from a protocol security perspective.
01:18:22,546 --> 01:18:27,528
Speaker 0: They have to, like, from a consensus layer, they have to, like, shut down Ethereum in order to stop Tornado Cash.
01:18:28,109 --> 01:18:30,570
Speaker 0: If we could do something like that on Bitcoin, I think that would be interesting.
01:18:30,590 --> 01:18:32,070
Speaker 0: But anyway, I've said a lot.
01:18:32,150 --> 01:18:34,011
Speaker 0: I'm curious, curious for your thoughts.
01:18:37,933 --> 01:18:39,334
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's possible.
01:18:39,354 --> 01:18:44,396
Speaker 1: I think a lot of things are possible, so it's quite possible.
01:18:45,114 --> 01:18:58,920
Speaker 1: But I'd like to note that, you know, there is a improvement of e-cash, anonymous e-cash, to the current banking system, to Coinbase.
01:18:59,380 --> 01:19:19,496
Speaker 1: Because although it is custodial, one thing, it's somewhat less custodial in a sense that at least the e-cash operator doesn't know who to steal the money from because it's anonymous.
01:19:19,657 --> 01:19:21,898
Speaker 1: So at least there is that.
01:19:24,761 --> 01:19:25,061
Speaker 0: Yes.
01:19:25,541 --> 01:19:26,922
Speaker 0: Yeah, that's that's possible.
01:19:27,183 --> 01:19:39,733
Speaker 0: We might get like free market anonymous banks, but I think I think the issue is that's just a lot of risk, you know, like I'm not going to be putting a lot of money on those.
01:19:39,813 --> 01:19:40,033
Speaker 0: Right.
01:19:40,073 --> 01:19:48,733
Speaker 0: Like, I think You know, like it's just going to be spending money for me, like as far as those kind of e-cash stuff, like I have a cash wallet.
01:19:48,753 --> 01:19:49,334
Speaker 0: It's super cool.
01:19:49,594 --> 01:19:51,376
Speaker 0: And just to be clear, the technology is very promising.
01:19:51,436 --> 01:19:56,740
Speaker 0: I'm very excited about it because it's again, it's as far as I can tell, it's infinitely scalable, right?
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:02,365
Speaker 0: Like it solves the scaling issues and it solves the privacy issues, but it just introduces custody issues, right?
01:20:03,867 --> 01:20:07,512
Speaker 0: So maybe, you know, maybe that's OK for spending wallets.
01:20:07,653 --> 01:20:09,255
Speaker 0: It's going to be easier to use than Lightning.
01:20:09,776 --> 01:20:12,700
Speaker 0: It doesn't have like the inbound liquidity problem that Lightning has.
01:20:12,740 --> 01:20:18,889
Speaker 0: So, you know, if people want to play with this, go check out Mutiny Wallet and, I don't know, pick a mint, you know.
01:20:20,130 --> 01:20:32,881
Speaker 0: You know, like if you're on Nostr, like they use Nostr, your Nostr sort of followers to help you find a mint that is trusted and recommended by your Nostr friends.
01:20:32,981 --> 01:20:33,182
Speaker 0: Right.
01:20:33,602 --> 01:20:41,429
Speaker 0: So like there's some sort of, you know, loose web of trust to identify, you know, probably good mints.
01:20:41,889 --> 01:20:42,931
Speaker 0: So like you can.
01:20:43,212 --> 01:20:47,159
Speaker 0: I think Muni Wallet is thinking about this correctly and moving in that direction.
01:20:47,199 --> 01:20:52,909
Speaker 0: And then you can use eCash with them and then also Lightning and also on Chain, you know, but.
01:20:55,635 --> 01:20:56,535
Speaker 0: I guess we'll see, right?
01:20:56,775 --> 01:21:01,357
Speaker 0: I mean, I'm trying to stay optimistic on this, and I think there's a lot of options.
01:21:02,057 --> 01:21:13,221
Speaker 0: There's a lot of possible ways it could go, but I would like to see some sort of way of constraining the custody side of e-cash with that.
01:21:13,461 --> 01:21:14,782
Speaker 0: That's more than just multi-sig.
01:21:15,222 --> 01:21:18,463
Speaker 0: Let's just add a time lock into it.
01:21:20,544 --> 01:21:27,381
Speaker 0: If we had better scripting tools, or if we had, let's say, The thing is, we might already have them.
01:21:27,501 --> 01:21:33,623
Speaker 0: There's some people working on this, but, but yeah, that's where I'm hoping the tech goes.
01:21:33,663 --> 01:21:42,046
Speaker 0: Like, let's just build a, let's actually use this smart contracting stuff and let's use script and let's just, let's build the bank in Cypher space.
01:21:42,086 --> 01:21:48,048
Speaker 0: And I think, I think Tornado Cash is the, is the, it's another elephant in the room.
01:21:48,088 --> 01:21:50,529
Speaker 0: It's sort of the, like, it still works.
01:21:50,869 --> 01:21:53,090
Speaker 0: It still has a significant amount of liquidity.
01:21:54,502 --> 01:21:56,263
Speaker 0: despite their devs being in prison.
01:21:56,663 --> 01:22:01,726
Speaker 0: That's evidence that there's a development path here that can be taken.
01:22:03,067 --> 01:22:05,829
Speaker 0: But I mean, I'm curious what your thoughts are on Tornado Cash, right?
01:22:05,849 --> 01:22:13,993
Speaker 0: Because that was sort of like another player in this space that obviously got hit, but is obviously in a different protocol.
01:22:17,876 --> 01:22:27,165
Speaker 1: So I said for the samurai things that I saw this coming miles away, that these people are going to be shut down by the state.
01:22:27,885 --> 01:22:31,688
Speaker 1: Now, regarding Tornado Cash, I did not see this coming.
01:22:32,148 --> 01:22:37,352
Speaker 1: That was completely unexpected and shocking for me.
01:22:38,312 --> 01:22:46,962
Speaker 1: You know, they did not virtue signal, they did not ask criminals to come use our software.
01:22:47,562 --> 01:22:52,504
Speaker 1: They were just nice developers, you know, like cryptographers and shit.
01:22:55,205 --> 01:23:01,667
Speaker 1: So what's happening with TornadoCache is bad.
01:23:02,287 --> 01:23:15,859
Speaker 1: But as you said, although the developers are under the bus, the TornadoCache protocol is is living, thriving.
01:23:16,579 --> 01:23:21,441
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's thriving, but it's surviving for sure.
01:23:22,962 --> 01:23:28,484
Speaker 1: However, the development of Tornado Cache has completely stopped, right?
01:23:28,904 --> 01:23:30,484
Speaker 1: So it's basically legacy.
01:23:30,524 --> 01:23:35,506
Speaker 1: code is getting, keep being run.
01:23:36,579 --> 01:23:43,883
Speaker 1: And, you know, one thing we know about software is that software has to keep improving to stay relevant.
01:23:44,683 --> 01:23:56,930
Speaker 1: I mean, even Bitcoin, you know, like if you think about that, Bitcoin was solving a lot more problems 10 years ago than it is solving now.
01:23:57,831 --> 01:24:06,055
Speaker 1: So I remember in 2013, there was a lot of Bitcoin adoption, a lot of pubs and places and everywhere.
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,062
Speaker 1: And that was like magic.
01:24:10,742 --> 01:24:18,587
Speaker 1: But since then, now we have Apple Pay and Google Pay and this pay and that pay.
01:24:19,067 --> 01:24:34,877
Speaker 1: So there are these decentralized tech wallets which are at the very least very useful and much more convenient than using Bitcoin.
01:24:36,859 --> 01:24:48,544
Speaker 1: So if Bitcoin is not improving the same pace, then the tech bros are improving their own centralized wallets.
01:24:49,324 --> 01:24:53,345
Speaker 1: Then even Bitcoin is losing relevance in some sense.
01:24:54,126 --> 01:24:57,627
Speaker 1: Of course, we have the uninflatability, which is a big cheat.
01:24:57,707 --> 01:24:59,267
Speaker 1: So at least there is that.
01:25:00,228 --> 01:25:00,548
Speaker 0: Yeah.
01:25:01,235 --> 01:25:03,956
Speaker 0: Yeah, no, I see that as well.
01:25:04,016 --> 01:25:10,299
Speaker 0: I think that the payments adoption side of things in meat space in the real world has definitely stopped.
01:25:11,259 --> 01:25:12,499
Speaker 0: I think online it's still.
01:25:12,820 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 0: there's still a lot of options, right?
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:18,302
Speaker 0: Like you can get an email paying with Bitcoin at ProtonMail, for example.
01:25:18,362 --> 01:25:23,084
Speaker 0: You can get all kinds of gift cards and stuff with BitRefill.com.
01:25:23,224 --> 01:25:26,785
Speaker 0: You can buy domain names on Namecheap, et cetera.
01:25:26,845 --> 01:25:28,986
Speaker 0: Among other providers with Bitcoin, you can do.
01:25:30,173 --> 01:25:42,617
Speaker 0: There's a lot of online stuff you can do with Bitcoin, but in the meat space, in retail, brick and mortar, it's very difficult, very rare.
01:25:42,637 --> 01:25:47,179
Speaker 0: I actually think it's not a problem with Bitcoin's technology, though.
01:25:47,199 --> 01:25:50,299
Speaker 0: I think it's a problem with the unit of account.
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:56,447
Speaker 0: I think it's a unit of account challenge because and I think it's a distribution challenge.
01:25:56,607 --> 01:26:03,155
Speaker 0: I just had this thought the night and I was going to tweet it out, but I was just, you know, one of those like 3 a.m.
01:26:03,195 --> 01:26:06,539
Speaker 0: thoughts that you're like, oh, man, this would be a great tweet, but you're too tired to tweet it.
01:26:07,961 --> 01:26:11,822
Speaker 0: But the idea was like, Bitcoin doesn't have a medium of exchange problem.
01:26:11,842 --> 01:26:14,703
Speaker 0: Bitcoin has a distribution problem.
01:26:15,103 --> 01:26:24,846
Speaker 0: So like maybe a million, maybe, I don't know, if you're generous, a hundred million people have Bitcoin today.
01:26:25,466 --> 01:26:27,267
Speaker 0: That's a very small amount.
01:26:27,547 --> 01:26:37,651
Speaker 0: That's maybe 10% of a billion, which is, you know, 15% of the world, right?
01:26:37,991 --> 01:26:40,916
Speaker 0: So you have like, 1% of the world has Bitcoin.
01:26:41,936 --> 01:26:43,737
Speaker 0: How in the world is it going to become a currency?
01:26:44,017 --> 01:26:48,719
Speaker 0: Like it's just it as a medium of exchange, people have to have it in order to spend it.
01:26:49,199 --> 01:26:53,961
Speaker 0: And so and there's a significant cost from like a like a learning curve perspective.
01:26:53,981 --> 01:26:55,881
Speaker 0: There's a there's a learning curve cost.
01:26:56,001 --> 01:26:56,121
Speaker 0: Right.
01:26:56,141 --> 01:26:59,823
Speaker 0: So there's a time and energy cost to adopting Bitcoin.
01:27:00,323 --> 01:27:02,084
Speaker 0: And then there's also like a monetary cost.
01:27:02,164 --> 01:27:03,364
Speaker 0: Like if you're buying Bitcoin.
01:27:05,145 --> 01:27:10,393
Speaker 0: Pretty much no way, no matter how you spend it, you're going to be paying two to three percent minimum to buy it.
01:27:11,434 --> 01:27:15,737
Speaker 0: You know, more likely if you're doing P2P, you're going to be spending 5% to acquire it.
01:27:16,678 --> 01:27:23,083
Speaker 0: Why would you go then and spend it and lose 5%?
01:27:23,083 --> 01:27:25,545
Speaker 0: You know, especially if you're earning in fiat.
01:27:27,467 --> 01:27:34,292
Speaker 0: And on top of that, you have this sort of volatility issue, which is, it's only volatile in the sense that you're comparing it to dollars.
01:27:34,332 --> 01:27:46,679
Speaker 0: But the problem is, Like more than half of the debt of the world is denominated in dollars and dollars are 60% of the currency, 70% of the volume of the world or something like that.
01:27:46,699 --> 01:27:50,022
Speaker 0: So like you, the dollar is the unit of account.
01:27:50,122 --> 01:27:51,263
Speaker 0: It is the measuring stick.
01:27:51,323 --> 01:27:54,466
Speaker 0: It's a shitty measuring stick, but it's better than most of the others.
01:27:55,798 --> 01:28:00,061
Speaker 0: And it'll that's probably probably has 20 years on it on it still.
01:28:00,121 --> 01:28:00,281
Speaker 0: Right.
01:28:00,301 --> 01:28:01,762
Speaker 0: I mean, the U.S.
01:28:01,782 --> 01:28:06,085
Speaker 0: government is doing everything they can to destroy the dollar as a unit of account.
01:28:06,145 --> 01:28:10,488
Speaker 0: But, you know, it's still probably got a decade or two.
01:28:10,528 --> 01:28:12,009
Speaker 0: So so I think it's.
01:28:12,169 --> 01:28:13,910
Speaker 0: I think it's like a distribution issue.
01:28:13,930 --> 01:28:20,315
Speaker 0: Like it's there's not enough people with Bitcoin and those that have it don't want to spend it because it's hard to get.
01:28:20,535 --> 01:28:28,822
Speaker 0: And on top of that, you have this speculative value Which is like, why would I spend it if it's probably going to go up in the future?
01:28:29,603 --> 01:28:32,147
Speaker 0: You know, I'd rather just keep it and spend my fiat.
01:28:32,207 --> 01:28:40,858
Speaker 0: So the hard money is being stored and saved on and the weak money is being spent.
01:28:40,898 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 0: And that's why we're seeing inflation.
01:28:42,260 --> 01:28:42,440
Speaker 0: Right.
01:28:43,341 --> 01:28:43,722
Speaker 0: And so.
01:28:45,214 --> 01:28:46,655
Speaker 0: It's to me, it's a distribution issue.
01:28:46,835 --> 01:28:54,718
Speaker 0: And I think that's actually what's happening with the difference being that online, you know, on the Internet, it actually makes more.
01:28:54,898 --> 01:29:00,661
Speaker 0: There is more utility to pay for stuff online with Bitcoin than, you know, than in Meetspace.
01:29:00,761 --> 01:29:00,981
Speaker 0: Right.
01:29:01,021 --> 01:29:04,943
Speaker 0: So because, again, like there's privacy advantages and it's native and it's easy to do it.
01:29:05,283 --> 01:29:13,407
Speaker 0: Whereas in Meetspace, you know, there's a lot more storefronts, a lot more businesses and they are not that online.
01:29:13,447 --> 01:29:13,987
Speaker 0: So, you know.
01:29:14,597 --> 01:29:16,718
Speaker 0: Anyway, that's kind of my thinking too.
01:29:16,798 --> 01:29:25,742
Speaker 0: Like even online, like a lot of people, like the other day I paid, I was looking for a Bitcoin or a crypto power to AI that I could pay for like premium sort of AI stuff.
01:29:25,903 --> 01:29:29,044
Speaker 0: And honestly, there's just not, nothing out.
01:29:29,084 --> 01:29:31,045
Speaker 0: there is good enough, you know?
01:29:31,205 --> 01:29:35,387
Speaker 0: So I just went with open AI for a little bit because, you know, they still have the best tech.
01:29:35,427 --> 01:29:36,568
Speaker 0: So anyway.
01:29:40,890 --> 01:29:42,991
Speaker 1: We have medium of account.
01:29:43,812 --> 01:29:52,354
Speaker 1: store of value, and unit of account, medium of exchange, and store of value, right?
01:29:53,294 --> 01:29:55,174
Speaker 1: Store of value is not an issue.
01:29:55,734 --> 01:29:57,455
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is going out forever.
01:29:58,255 --> 01:30:06,216
Speaker 1: Now, unit of count, I actually, I don't share your thoughts there.
01:30:06,396 --> 01:30:16,247
Speaker 1: I think unit of count is something that is taken that will get taken care of by itself.
01:30:17,188 --> 01:30:23,653
Speaker 1: As Bitcoin adoption grows, the unit of account is going to stabilize, right?
01:30:24,054 --> 01:30:29,058
Speaker 1: Even right now, I mean, the Bitcoin price barely even moving at this point.
01:30:29,999 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 1: We already got the ETFs.
01:30:32,381 --> 01:30:33,502
Speaker 1: What are the ETFs?
01:30:33,642 --> 01:30:39,727
Speaker 1: The ETFs are the largest thing that could have ever happened to Bitcoin, right?
01:30:40,134 --> 01:30:42,134
Speaker 1: Bitcoin got to the big markets.
01:30:42,214 --> 01:30:44,675
Speaker 1: Now we are in the largest leagues.
01:30:44,975 --> 01:30:45,615
Speaker 1: there are.
01:30:46,295 --> 01:30:51,716
Speaker 1: So, there is no other, no other level here.
01:30:51,916 --> 01:30:54,877
Speaker 1: We are, we are in the final, final level.
01:30:55,597 --> 01:30:58,677
Speaker 1: And, and Bitcoin will stabilize.
01:30:58,797 --> 01:31:02,978
Speaker 1: That's the, that's the end of the currency.
01:31:03,578 --> 01:31:06,919
Speaker 1: And it will become boring like, like other dollars.
01:31:07,813 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: But like other currencies, it's just Bitcoin is going to keep going up slowly instead of keep going down slowly.
01:31:16,339 --> 01:31:25,726
Speaker 1: The medium of exchange, what worries me here, I mean, us Bitcoin developers are failing.
01:31:25,786 --> 01:31:27,948
Speaker 1: you guys, Bitcoin users.
01:31:28,108 --> 01:31:31,631
Speaker 1: I'm miserably failing on the medium of exchange here.
01:31:34,933 --> 01:31:37,115
Speaker 1: Is it too much to ask for anonymity?
01:31:37,777 --> 01:31:47,927
Speaker 1: Well yes it is too much to ask for anonymity and fungibility because we couldn't even figure out how to make it how to make it cheat you know and fast.
01:31:48,768 --> 01:31:54,972
Speaker 1: so so yeah the medium of exchange, what varies.
01:31:55,032 --> 01:31:55,452
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:31:55,532 --> 01:31:56,052
Speaker 0: So, okay.
01:31:56,072 --> 01:31:57,652
Speaker 0: Let me, let me clarify something there.
01:31:57,792 --> 01:31:59,773
Speaker 0: I don't, I don't think I do.
01:31:59,793 --> 01:32:04,274
Speaker 0: I agree with you that that unit of account will happen over time.
01:32:04,574 --> 01:32:06,035
Speaker 0: And it's a very slow grind.
01:32:06,195 --> 01:32:08,955
Speaker 0: and unit of account to me is the final boss of money.
01:32:09,656 --> 01:32:17,778
Speaker 0: You know, that's like almost all of the U. S is power is based on its unit of account.
01:32:18,849 --> 01:32:28,554
Speaker 0: System like the fact that they are the money of the world that they have the the most widely distributed Currency and and and I think you gotta think
01:32:28,654 --> 01:32:35,917
Speaker 1: and it's backed by gold And it's backed by gold right
01:32:35,977 --> 01:32:43,421
Speaker 0: right it was you know, yeah, yeah redeemable by gold unless you actually try to redeem it and then That it's not redeemable.
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:45,902
Speaker 0: But well, OK, so it's never been.
01:32:46,262 --> 01:32:48,223
Speaker 0: it hasn't been backed by gold since the 70s.
01:32:48,423 --> 01:32:51,245
Speaker 0: It probably hasn't really been backed by gold since the 30s.
01:32:51,385 --> 01:32:51,566
Speaker 0: Right.
01:32:52,246 --> 01:32:55,889
Speaker 0: And so but but nevertheless, because of the U.S.
01:32:55,929 --> 01:33:01,893
Speaker 0: military and because of their sort of empire, right, like military empire.
01:33:02,645 --> 01:33:11,510
Speaker 0: they managed to, they printed a metric ton of dollars and then they, they went and spent them all over the world.
01:33:11,950 --> 01:33:17,993
Speaker 0: And so they distributed the dollars to billions of people who now have them and have to spend them.
01:33:18,373 --> 01:33:23,856
Speaker 0: And so they might as well spend them and they might as well denominate debt in it because they probably are going to keep getting dollars.
01:33:24,216 --> 01:33:24,636
Speaker 0: You know what I mean?
01:33:24,696 --> 01:33:28,718
Speaker 0: It's a, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy of unit of account.
01:33:29,199 --> 01:33:33,472
Speaker 0: When you reach, when you are the alpha, government, right?
01:33:34,452 --> 01:33:36,394
Speaker 0: The apex predator of governments.
01:33:36,454 --> 01:33:37,455
Speaker 0: You get to do that.
01:33:38,015 --> 01:33:39,696
Speaker 0: And I mean, this is the history of money, right?
01:33:39,737 --> 01:33:41,918
Speaker 0: Like the same thing happened with the British pound.
01:33:42,018 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 0: And, you know, like this has happened many times, right?
01:33:44,060 --> 01:33:55,248
Speaker 0: Like the Roman gold coins, the same thing, like like when the Roman Empire was crushing, you know, their gold was getting and ending up in China through like the Silk Road and such.
01:33:55,789 --> 01:34:04,839
Speaker 0: Even at a time when Rome didn't know that China exists and China didn't know that Rome exist, existed, they just knew that Like the Romans just saw silk coming in.
01:34:04,859 --> 01:34:06,119
Speaker 0: They were like, what the hell is this?
01:34:06,139 --> 01:34:06,799
Speaker 0: And they loved it.
01:34:07,039 --> 01:34:07,959
Speaker 0: So they kept buying it.
01:34:07,979 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 0: It was like a luxury good.
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:13,221
Speaker 0: And then the Chinese just kept making silk and getting these weird gold coins.
01:34:13,321 --> 01:34:13,501
Speaker 0: Right.
01:34:14,041 --> 01:34:16,722
Speaker 0: And they thought, well, there must be like an Eastern China somewhere.
01:34:16,822 --> 01:34:16,982
Speaker 0: Right.
01:34:17,362 --> 01:34:18,582
Speaker 0: Like a Western China somewhere.
01:34:18,602 --> 01:34:21,043
Speaker 0: They literally called Rome Western China.
01:34:21,563 --> 01:34:25,604
Speaker 0: They just knew that there was like somewhere this somebody was making these gold coins.
01:34:25,624 --> 01:34:26,644
Speaker 0: They're starting to stack them.
01:34:26,704 --> 01:34:26,844
Speaker 0: Right.
01:34:27,324 --> 01:34:33,174
Speaker 0: And so that's kind of You know, something like that is has happened with a dollar.
01:34:33,474 --> 01:34:39,100
Speaker 0: But again, like the dollar, you know, on a long enough time frame will fail and will fade.
01:34:39,661 --> 01:34:45,106
Speaker 0: And that is and Bitcoin, you know, if it survives, it will continue to be here and continue to grow.
01:34:45,507 --> 01:34:46,508
Speaker 0: And I think it will survive.
01:34:46,608 --> 01:34:51,553
Speaker 0: But, you know, it's it's not it's not perfect and it is not invulnerable, but it's very, very strong.
01:34:52,219 --> 01:34:56,141
Speaker 0: So, um, so I think, I think, yeah, I think the unit of account is just a matter of time.
01:34:57,001 --> 01:35:00,703
Speaker 0: I just don't see why people are saying that it's a bad medium of exchange.
01:35:00,763 --> 01:35:05,786
Speaker 0: Like technically speaking, it's trivial to send, right?
01:35:05,846 --> 01:35:07,306
Speaker 0: Like you just download of a wallet.
01:35:07,527 --> 01:35:08,267
Speaker 0: Like if you download.
01:35:09,099 --> 01:35:14,821
Speaker 0: Again, like I hate to say like download Wasabi, not Wasabi, Wallet of Satoshi.
01:35:14,861 --> 01:35:16,581
Speaker 0: I guess if you're in the US, you can't, right?
01:35:17,041 --> 01:35:20,402
Speaker 0: But like, okay, go, if you download Mutiny Wallet and I'll send you cash, right?
01:35:20,442 --> 01:35:21,662
Speaker 0: I'll send you Bitcoin and you'll get it.
01:35:21,902 --> 01:35:25,803
Speaker 0: And we can denominate our payment in Bitcoin and it's done.
01:35:25,843 --> 01:35:27,364
Speaker 0: But the problem is the denomination, right?
01:35:27,944 --> 01:35:28,884
Speaker 0: That's actually the problem.
01:35:29,504 --> 01:35:31,425
Speaker 0: Like it's actually very easy to send Bitcoin.
01:35:31,965 --> 01:35:35,566
Speaker 0: It's just very difficult to account in it.
01:35:36,397 --> 01:35:38,578
Speaker 0: Because then you have to take the volatility risk.
01:35:38,638 --> 01:35:48,404
Speaker 0: And, you know, as strong as it is with ETFs and everything, we just dropped, we just lost 5% this week, you know, and we'll regain it in a, in a month.
01:35:48,524 --> 01:35:48,704
Speaker 0: Right.
01:35:49,244 --> 01:35:54,347
Speaker 0: So like, I, I, I, I mean, I would like to have better fungibility, better privacy.
01:35:54,367 --> 01:35:55,548
Speaker 0: I think we're going to move to that.
01:35:55,888 --> 01:35:58,670
Speaker 0: I think primal.net is really interesting example.
01:35:59,490 --> 01:36:03,753
Speaker 0: And I think there's this whole sort of tech tree being developed where you're going to have.
01:36:04,298 --> 01:36:16,573
Speaker 0: Like you're going to have for me, like JuanGal.com, you're going to have like paid at JuanGal.com and there's going to be some cryptography thing on my DNS and that's going to resolve to a stealth address and to my Nostra account.
01:36:17,934 --> 01:36:22,180
Speaker 0: And that's how we're going to probably do payments for my public NIM, you know.
01:36:22,808 --> 01:36:26,672
Speaker 0: And then I'll have like, I don't know, another one for my KYC shit or whatever.
01:36:26,732 --> 01:36:26,912
Speaker 0: Right.
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:29,754
Speaker 0: I think I think that's the way that things are.
01:36:29,874 --> 01:36:31,756
Speaker 0: This is probably this is the industry is going.
01:36:32,937 --> 01:36:41,585
Speaker 0: But I think the area where we we still need to sort of solve is on the on the on the spending side of stealth addresses.
01:36:41,685 --> 01:36:44,667
Speaker 0: And, you know, like we're going to need some sort of coin mixing still.
01:36:45,448 --> 01:36:46,989
Speaker 0: I don't see a way around it.
01:36:47,190 --> 01:36:48,110
Speaker 0: Maybe pay join.
01:36:48,291 --> 01:36:48,671
Speaker 0: I don't know.
01:36:49,191 --> 01:36:49,372
Speaker 0: But.
01:36:51,209 --> 01:36:55,591
Speaker 0: But yeah, anyway, that's my thoughts on that.
01:36:57,372 --> 01:36:59,893
Speaker 1: Do you think Bitcoin will be the next currency?
01:37:00,413 --> 01:37:10,678
Speaker 1: Like, you know, when the US dollar is done, is it going to be Bitcoin or are we going to see another national currency?
01:37:11,578 --> 01:37:13,940
Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of that is geopolitics, you know.
01:37:15,942 --> 01:37:17,723
Speaker 0: It depends how things play out, right?
01:37:18,183 --> 01:37:27,387
Speaker 0: Like in a scenario where the great powers don't go to like a hot war, right?
01:37:28,087 --> 01:37:36,551
Speaker 0: Like, you know, we're on track for a hot war, but the war can't be that hot between the great powers, right?
01:37:36,571 --> 01:37:42,554
Speaker 0: Like the US and Russia can't actually go to blows because they will end each other.
01:37:43,615 --> 01:37:48,977
Speaker 0: So they have to like go through these proxies or like, you know, be all kinds of shady about it.
01:37:49,037 --> 01:37:53,678
Speaker 0: You know, like they're throw, like they'll have to throw the stones and hide their hands.
01:37:54,199 --> 01:38:04,382
Speaker 0: And so there'll be, there'll be, there'll be proxy HAW wars, but they can't, they can't fully go to war because that's a nuclear war and nobody wins that.
01:38:05,413 --> 01:38:07,054
Speaker 0: And then the same thing happens with China.
01:38:07,074 --> 01:38:10,455
Speaker 0: If China invades Taiwan, then the U.S.
01:38:10,475 --> 01:38:13,535
Speaker 0: has to go and fight Taiwan, defend Taiwan.
01:38:13,595 --> 01:38:14,956
Speaker 0: And so now the U.S.
01:38:14,976 --> 01:38:17,257
Speaker 0: will be involved in a three front war.
01:38:17,517 --> 01:38:17,717
Speaker 0: Right.
01:38:17,897 --> 01:38:19,777
Speaker 0: So it's the empire.
01:38:19,977 --> 01:38:20,197
Speaker 0: Right.
01:38:20,237 --> 01:38:21,498
Speaker 0: Like they're defending Taiwan.
01:38:21,618 --> 01:38:24,579
Speaker 0: They're defending Ukraine and they're backing Israel.
01:38:24,759 --> 01:38:24,959
Speaker 0: Right.
01:38:25,039 --> 01:38:25,699
Speaker 0: And so you're fine.
01:38:26,220 --> 01:38:26,520
Speaker 0: The U.S.
01:38:26,540 --> 01:38:34,248
Speaker 0: will be fighting a three front war and not paying attention to its own borders, which are being basically, practically speaking, invaded by who knows who.
01:38:34,428 --> 01:38:34,628
Speaker 0: Right.
01:38:34,949 --> 01:38:37,551
Speaker 0: Because there's no way to track it because nobody's tracking it.
01:38:37,571 --> 01:38:40,995
Speaker 0: So there's something like 17 million people have entered the U.S.
01:38:41,015 --> 01:38:43,197
Speaker 0: in the past few years illegally to the borders.
01:38:43,557 --> 01:38:44,478
Speaker 0: So you don't know who's in there.
01:38:44,638 --> 01:38:44,819
Speaker 0: Right.
01:38:45,099 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 0: Like people from all over the world.
01:38:46,932 --> 01:38:48,413
Speaker 0: maybe prisons, maybe et cetera.
01:38:48,433 --> 01:38:55,599
Speaker 0: So like, again, like how are they going to, they're going to defend their, their, their, their own borders while fighting three wars at the same time.
01:38:55,939 --> 01:38:57,581
Speaker 0: That's probably the end of the U S empire.
01:38:57,821 --> 01:38:58,001
Speaker 0: Right.
01:38:58,482 --> 01:39:04,827
Speaker 0: And then you have like this sort of, you're going to have this sort of civil war environment in a, in a hot, in a hot war environment.
01:39:05,387 --> 01:39:06,869
Speaker 0: This is sort of how it would play out, right?
01:39:06,889 --> 01:39:09,010
Speaker 0: Like the U S empire would sort of collapse.
01:39:09,471 --> 01:39:12,753
Speaker 0: And then it's a question of who comes out, who emerges a victor, right?
01:39:13,114 --> 01:39:14,275
Speaker 0: Does anybody win that war?
01:39:14,555 --> 01:39:14,695
Speaker 0: Right.
01:39:15,148 --> 01:39:17,210
Speaker 0: Does anybody sort of like, how does that play out?
01:39:17,630 --> 01:39:18,351
Speaker 0: Maybe China?
01:39:18,711 --> 01:39:20,192
Speaker 0: I'm not sure China is going to do it.
01:39:20,212 --> 01:39:30,580
Speaker 0: I think it's more likely that India, you know, India becomes a great power from a, from an intellectual capacity.
01:39:31,061 --> 01:39:34,644
Speaker 0: They're like, you know, they have some of the smartest people in the world.
01:39:35,044 --> 01:39:37,426
Speaker 0: They have about as many people as China.
01:39:37,466 --> 01:39:40,008
Speaker 0: They have like, you know, I think 2 billion people or something like that.
01:39:40,831 --> 01:39:44,934
Speaker 0: And they are, you know, a geographical power.
01:39:45,054 --> 01:39:47,535
Speaker 0: They have incredible resources.
01:39:48,376 --> 01:39:50,437
Speaker 0: They speak, they're learning English very fast.
01:39:50,877 --> 01:39:53,999
Speaker 0: They've modernized their country incredibly well.
01:39:54,419 --> 01:39:58,302
Speaker 0: They have incredible payment system, soft infrastructure.
01:39:58,342 --> 01:40:02,484
Speaker 0: So like India is more likely to become the next world power, in my opinion.
01:40:02,524 --> 01:40:08,916
Speaker 0: But, you know, Does that mean that we're going to be trading in Indian currency?
01:40:09,036 --> 01:40:09,637
Speaker 0: I don't know, man.
01:40:09,757 --> 01:40:16,101
Speaker 0: I mean, I think we might end up with like a combination of gold, Bitcoin and like fiat currencies.
01:40:16,662 --> 01:40:18,423
Speaker 0: I'm certainly going to be on the Bitcoin standard.
01:40:19,224 --> 01:40:20,325
Speaker 0: And then I'm going to be playing.
01:40:20,905 --> 01:40:23,147
Speaker 0: I'm going to be playing both games, you know, like.
01:40:23,187 --> 01:40:27,030
Speaker 0: I think I think there's a very legitimate case for like playing both games, you know, like.
01:40:27,310 --> 01:40:42,020
Speaker 0: I think the the way forward for our generation is like you store your Bitcoin You have like cold storage Bitcoin and then maybe you put some on some on like something like on chain and you take a loan against it, you know, and then you pay your bills that way.
01:40:42,140 --> 01:40:43,061
Speaker 0: And you that's how you dodge.
01:40:43,421 --> 01:40:45,003
Speaker 0: That's how you like optimize your taxes.
01:40:45,063 --> 01:40:45,203
Speaker 0: Right.
01:40:45,243 --> 01:40:51,048
Speaker 0: You just don't spend your Bitcoin and you just take loans against it and manage the risk.
01:40:51,488 --> 01:40:54,731
Speaker 0: That's a sophisticated way to do Bitcoin in the West.
01:40:57,421 --> 01:40:58,021
Speaker 0: Because why?
01:40:58,061 --> 01:41:07,685
Speaker 0: Because if you take a loan against your Bitcoin and you spend the loan, you're not, your, your loan is not taxable because your loan is not income.
01:41:08,245 --> 01:41:08,425
Speaker 0: Right.
01:41:08,805 --> 01:41:11,326
Speaker 0: And so you don't get taxes and you're also not selling the Bitcoin.
01:41:11,346 --> 01:41:13,747
Speaker 0: So you're not occurring a capital gains tax on it.
01:41:14,207 --> 01:41:16,788
Speaker 0: And so that's, that's in theory, the way to do it.
01:41:16,968 --> 01:41:17,148
Speaker 0: Right.
01:41:18,069 --> 01:41:23,771
Speaker 0: Um, so I think that's the way we're going to, the West is going to develop, but I don't know.
01:41:23,811 --> 01:41:27,638
Speaker 0: I mean that, You know, that's that's that's that's the landscape.
01:41:27,658 --> 01:41:35,840
Speaker 0: But like that's assuming, you know, and if there is no war and if things cool off, let's say Trump gets in and actually delivers anything that he's promising.
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 0: Right.
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:38,401
Speaker 0: Which is completely a total coin toss.
01:41:38,441 --> 01:41:44,202
Speaker 0: But let's say he does it and he ends the wars and like stabilizes things and reforms the United States.
01:41:44,282 --> 01:41:49,783
Speaker 0: And like we get this sort of great reformation of the West, which has happened throughout history.
01:41:49,823 --> 01:41:51,483
Speaker 0: Like we have had great reformers.
01:41:52,004 --> 01:41:53,544
Speaker 0: It's rare, but it happens.
01:41:54,525 --> 01:41:59,389
Speaker 0: And so let's say Trump jumps in and manages to like roll back the deep state somehow, right?
01:41:59,409 --> 01:42:04,392
Speaker 0: And like deregulates and reforms, then you will have another US revival.
01:42:04,712 --> 01:42:07,154
Speaker 0: You know, you have, you will have like a kind of Renaissance, right?
01:42:07,434 --> 01:42:14,820
Speaker 0: Like if you think about the end of the, if you think about the end of the Catholic empire of sorts, right?
01:42:14,860 --> 01:42:21,465
Speaker 0: Like you, the, the end of the dark ages and the beginning of the Renaissance, the Renaissance was the Da Vinci mercantile class.
01:42:22,535 --> 01:42:36,861
Speaker 0: reforming the age of Catholic kings fighting each other, you know, and sending their peasants to war, you know, and like killing each other over 1,500 years, right?
01:42:37,261 --> 01:43:01,141
Speaker 0: The Da Vinci, not the Da Vinci, basically like the Venice merchant class developed the invented diplomacy And then through secular skepticism, knocked down the right of kings, a couple of pegs, and then hired mercenaries and defended their property and created the secular state.
01:43:01,941 --> 01:43:08,344
Speaker 0: While at the same time, they built all the incredible churches in Italy that are monuments to Catholicism and Christianity.
01:43:08,365 --> 01:43:15,728
Speaker 0: So like they kept the values, but they secularized the state and then they reformed the West.
01:43:16,309 --> 01:43:17,689
Speaker 0: And then you had the Renaissance.
01:43:17,969 --> 01:43:24,818
Speaker 0: But of course that was like, after, you know, 1500 years of Dark Age.
01:43:24,898 --> 01:43:31,661
Speaker 0: Well, let's say 500 years of Dark Age, like the fall of Rome, the rise of the Catholic Church, which was good in that time compared to the fall of Rome.
01:43:32,362 --> 01:43:40,906
Speaker 0: And then the collapse, like the corruption and the collapse of the Catholic Empire with all this like crazy shit that the priests were doing like in the 1500s, 1600s, right?
01:43:45,959 --> 01:43:46,679
Speaker 0: You could see.
01:43:46,939 --> 01:43:50,721
Speaker 0: what I'm saying is you could see a reform of the West and you could see a reform of the United States.
01:43:51,041 --> 01:43:52,942
Speaker 0: I just don't know if we've fallen hard enough yet.
01:43:53,262 --> 01:43:57,683
Speaker 0: Yeah, I think we could arguably be have a lot further to go.
01:43:58,664 --> 01:43:59,124
Speaker 0: And so.
01:44:01,325 --> 01:44:07,227
Speaker 0: It's up to humans to figure it out, right, but I think in a reformed West environment.
01:44:11,849 --> 01:44:15,290
Speaker 0: You know, a rational Western world would pick sound money.
01:44:15,816 --> 01:44:15,996
Speaker 0: Right.
01:44:17,637 --> 01:44:28,902
Speaker 0: Like a rational United States government would start collateralizing, like, like buying Bitcoin in order to hedge their treasury market.
01:44:29,242 --> 01:44:29,422
Speaker 0: Right.
01:44:29,702 --> 01:44:33,784
Speaker 0: Maybe or maybe the world would be like, well, the United States is so great, we'll just buy their bonds again.
01:44:33,824 --> 01:44:37,026
Speaker 0: So I don't know, maybe maybe a stable world is not that good for Bitcoin.
01:44:37,046 --> 01:44:37,366
Speaker 0: I don't know.
01:44:37,726 --> 01:44:42,288
Speaker 0: But I think Bitcoin would still crush in that in that environment because it's digital, digitally native.
01:44:43,249 --> 01:44:59,038
Speaker 0: And I think a healthy society would pick technology that is more sovereign and more defensive of civil rights and individuals because the foundations of the society are the individual civil rights.
01:44:59,338 --> 01:44:59,518
Speaker 0: Right.
01:45:00,059 --> 01:45:02,020
Speaker 0: And so you will want civil rights money.
01:45:02,060 --> 01:45:02,981
Speaker 0: And that's what Bitcoin is.
01:45:03,041 --> 01:45:03,181
Speaker 0: Right.
01:45:03,221 --> 01:45:03,562
Speaker 0: And so.
01:45:03,582 --> 01:45:05,583
Speaker 0: I don't know.
01:45:08,125 --> 01:45:09,006
Speaker 0: We'll see how it plays out.
01:45:13,032 --> 01:45:27,167
Speaker 1: sorry to change the topic a bit but i just noticed that crew is right now here as a listener and since currently he is running the largest liquidity wasabi coordinator
01:45:27,388 --> 01:45:27,848
Speaker 0: it
01:45:27,928 --> 01:45:39,609
Speaker 1: might be interesting to to bring him on board and hear what his thoughts about Bitcoin privacy, because he's spearheading this entire movement.
01:45:39,829 --> 01:45:40,509
Speaker 0: Let's do it.
01:45:40,989 --> 01:45:42,410
Speaker 0: Kruv, we're going to throw you the mic.
01:45:42,430 --> 01:45:43,130
Speaker 0: Hang on a second.
01:45:43,330 --> 01:45:44,031
Speaker 0: Hang on tight.
01:45:45,231 --> 01:45:45,831
Speaker 0: There you are.
01:45:47,272 --> 01:45:48,973
Speaker 0: K-R-U-W, right?
01:45:51,134 --> 01:45:51,354
Speaker 1: Yep.
01:45:54,975 --> 01:45:56,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, they are in Prague.
01:45:56,616 --> 01:45:59,157
Speaker 1: There is a Bitcoin conference happening in Prague.
01:45:59,784 --> 01:46:00,345
Speaker 0: Oh, that's fun.
01:46:00,605 --> 01:46:01,826
Speaker 0: I would love to be in Prague right now.
01:46:02,706 --> 01:46:05,588
Speaker 0: Rob, can you help us with Kruv?
01:46:05,729 --> 01:46:08,871
Speaker 0: His picture is Tigger from Winnie the Pooh.
01:46:08,911 --> 01:46:10,893
Speaker 0: And the name is K-R-U-W.
01:46:12,554 --> 01:46:12,754
Speaker 0: Right?
01:46:12,774 --> 01:46:14,015
Speaker 0: Is that him?
01:46:15,596 --> 01:46:15,916
Speaker 0: Yeah.
01:46:15,936 --> 01:46:17,397
Speaker 0: How are you doing, man?
01:46:19,259 --> 01:46:27,865
Speaker 3: I appreciate the compliments from spearheading the movement, but that definitely wasn't me.
01:46:28,996 --> 01:46:34,340
Speaker 3: There's like 10 different coordinators right now who are all doing Wasabi coin joins.
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:41,465
Speaker 3: So it's definitely good to have the attack surface that the government has to deal with spread out.
01:46:41,585 --> 01:46:42,045
Speaker 3: So that's good.
01:46:44,527 --> 01:46:47,329
Speaker 1: Why are you running a Wasabi wallet coordinator?
01:46:48,630 --> 01:46:51,652
Speaker 3: Because I don't want to live in a world where Bitcoin doesn't have privacy.
01:46:56,936 --> 01:46:58,457
Speaker 3: So sometimes you just have to do it yourself.
01:46:59,898 --> 01:47:08,201
Speaker 0: Yeah, and how are you thinking about, let's say, the thread model for this coordinator?
01:47:08,221 --> 01:47:12,943
Speaker 0: I mean, Nopara mentioned that it's a nonprofit, right?
01:47:13,463 --> 01:47:14,484
Speaker 0: You're not taking a fee.
01:47:15,884 --> 01:47:16,864
Speaker 0: Yeah, how are you thinking about it?
01:47:18,645 --> 01:47:21,426
Speaker 3: Right, so the barrier to entry is really low.
01:47:21,566 --> 01:47:26,468
Speaker 3: So all you need is a node, and that's it.
01:47:29,768 --> 01:47:35,653
Speaker 3: my threat model is not intended to defend against all the governments in the world.
01:47:35,913 --> 01:47:37,855
Speaker 3: They're extraordinarily powerful.
01:47:38,576 --> 01:47:48,164
Speaker 3: So, um, sometimes, uh, the only thing you can do is, um, is join, you know, the army of Bitcoiners, right.
01:47:48,724 --> 01:47:52,327
Speaker 3: And, uh, and have strength in numbers, which is how coin joins work to begin with, right?
01:47:52,367 --> 01:47:55,090
Speaker 3: The bigger the crowd you're hiding in, the more privacy you gain.
01:47:55,810 --> 01:48:02,176
Speaker 3: But if everyone just abandons that mission, then the people left behind don't have reinforcements, right?
01:48:02,936 --> 01:48:12,683
Speaker 3: So I'm certainly not invincible by any means, but giving up without trying is not an option.
01:48:14,224 --> 01:48:16,606
Speaker 0: Yeah, we definitely can't just surrender privacy.
01:48:17,607 --> 01:48:19,148
Speaker 0: That's the fundamental surrender, right?
01:48:21,269 --> 01:48:22,370
Speaker 0: We got to defend privacy.
01:48:22,991 --> 01:48:31,042
Speaker 0: And it's funny because, again, the United States, constitution has privacy built into it.
01:48:31,062 --> 01:48:44,810
Speaker 0: You have to have a court order with reasonable doubt or like you have to have a really good reason and a court order to go and like invade somebody's privacy according to, you know, 1800s constitution, right?
01:48:44,930 --> 01:48:46,271
Speaker 0: And 1800s threat model.
01:48:47,111 --> 01:48:55,397
Speaker 0: But today we have this sort of technocratic dragnet that's like, you know, forcing you to dox yourself in order to access finance.
01:48:55,677 --> 01:48:55,857
Speaker 0: Right.
01:48:56,538 --> 01:48:57,979
Speaker 0: And and.
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:20,599
Speaker 0: And so, you know, that that side of that layer of of civilization has been drastically eroded and without it, a lot of things start to break down, you know, you get these sort of authoritarian uh, power structures that can just go after anybody they like, including their political enemies.
01:49:20,659 --> 01:49:21,944
Speaker 0: And so like democracy literally.
01:49:22,796 --> 01:49:25,618
Speaker 0: falls and fails without privacy.
01:49:25,638 --> 01:49:28,480
Speaker 0: And, you know, nobody's talking about it, right?
01:49:28,500 --> 01:49:37,586
Speaker 0: I mean, actually it is being talked about to some degree, but like it's, you know, I think you're right that we actually, we can't expect governments to defend our privacy.
01:49:37,626 --> 01:49:41,368
Speaker 0: We actually have to take the defense of our privacy into our own hands.
01:49:41,408 --> 01:49:47,172
Speaker 0: So I really respect that and I appreciate that you're standing up for that.
01:49:49,037 --> 01:49:59,526
Speaker 3: Um, so, uh, a quote that I heard, I believe no para, uh, mentioned that, I don't know if it originally came from him, but the quote is the government is a punishment machine.
01:50:00,046 --> 01:50:00,246
Speaker 3: Right.
01:50:00,967 --> 01:50:10,815
Speaker 3: So that's it's entire existence is revolves revolves around, um, threatening people, uh, so that they do what they want.
01:50:11,015 --> 01:50:11,215
Speaker 3: Right.
01:50:11,375 --> 01:50:16,800
Speaker 3: So, um, it's, it's more of a human spirit thing, right?
01:50:17,378 --> 01:50:18,960
Speaker 3: It's not just spirit, it's education.
01:50:19,961 --> 01:50:23,624
Speaker 3: It's not just education and spirit, it's also the tools, right?
01:50:24,305 --> 01:50:25,166
Speaker 3: I'm not a developer.
01:50:25,847 --> 01:50:34,435
Speaker 3: Fortunately, I'm inheriting the great work done by open source developers who have laid this groundwork, right, so that people can defend themselves.
01:50:35,356 --> 01:50:49,335
Speaker 3: So it's definitely a team effort, and I'm not counting on a government court or a government politician to protect these rights because I think that their incentives are entirely opposite of that.
01:50:53,157 --> 01:50:55,337
Speaker 0: Yeah, no, I think that's generally the case.
01:50:56,558 --> 01:51:01,380
Speaker 0: Go ahead, Noparu, if you had some thoughts.
01:51:01,400 --> 01:51:05,682
Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention that the government is a punishment machine.
01:51:06,562 --> 01:51:16,965
Speaker 1: I actually heard that from Lukas and Lukas is Person living in Argentina is a developer and he's the main.
01:51:17,845 --> 01:51:22,486
Speaker 1: Currently, he's the main developer of the wasabi bullet project.
01:51:22,566 --> 01:51:32,308
Speaker 0: So There is that gotcha Crow should just call you crow Crew.
01:51:35,590 --> 01:51:46,059
Speaker 0: Um, I noticed you have, uh, activate BIP 119 check object template, verify slash CTV on your profile.
01:51:47,781 --> 01:51:48,381
Speaker 0: Tell us about that.
01:51:48,401 --> 01:51:50,583
Speaker 0: Like, is there something that you see, like?
01:51:50,723 --> 01:51:58,050
Speaker 0: what, what kind of applications, like, is there any specific application you're excited about to build with CTV?
01:51:59,591 --> 01:52:02,914
Speaker 3: So Jeremy Rubin is the author of a CTV.
01:52:03,855 --> 01:52:14,659
Speaker 3: And about two or three years ago, he had published an advent calendar with like 21 different blog articles, uh, that explains all the potential use cases for CTV.
01:52:14,679 --> 01:52:16,660
Speaker 3: Uh, it included code examples.
01:52:17,420 --> 01:52:20,261
Speaker 3: Um, so a bunch of this stuff is way over my head.
01:52:20,681 --> 01:52:29,765
Speaker 3: So I, I, I can't explain everything exactly, but, um, I do think CTV at its base level is, is a pretty simple concept, right?
01:52:30,325 --> 01:52:32,906
Speaker 3: Is it's an address that.
01:52:33,897 --> 01:52:36,259
Speaker 3: has predefined spending conditions, right?
01:52:36,939 --> 01:52:39,401
Speaker 3: So this enables a lot of flexibility.
01:52:39,421 --> 01:52:53,890
Speaker 3: Um, the main focus of people who are, who are involved in, uh, with, uh, op CTV and other covenants is focused on scaling, but you inherit a bunch of, uh, privacy improvements as well.
01:52:53,930 --> 01:52:54,110
Speaker 3: Right?
01:52:54,770 --> 01:53:09,370
Speaker 3: So, um, you know, maybe one day wasabi wallet and the wabi-sabi coinjoin protocol will be obsolete because there's just way better options for privacy that are also cheaper.
01:53:10,231 --> 01:53:12,453
Speaker 3: So like an example for this might be ARK.
01:53:13,013 --> 01:53:19,398
Speaker 3: Now there's some nuances here because there's this like huge liquidity requirement that, you know, coinjoin coordinators don't have for ARK.
01:53:19,998 --> 01:53:25,738
Speaker 3: But, and By the way, like, CTV is not required for ARK.
01:53:25,918 --> 01:53:26,578
Speaker 3: It makes it better.
01:53:26,819 --> 01:53:28,300
Speaker 3: It reduces the level of interactivity.
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:35,145
Speaker 3: But I think that Bitcoin's kind of at a stalemate right now.
01:53:35,686 --> 01:53:38,768
Speaker 3: We have lightning, but that doesn't push us far enough.
01:53:40,950 --> 01:53:48,616
Speaker 3: So I would say that the focus on CTV is not necessarily about privacy, but the scaling improvements.
01:53:50,618 --> 01:53:50,798
Speaker 0: Right.
01:53:51,513 --> 01:54:02,678
Speaker 0: You know, I'm really curious about the, I'm actually, I'm going to try to get Jeremy Rubin on because I would love to, I'd love to pick his brain about what we could build.
01:54:02,718 --> 01:54:32,664
Speaker 0: Because again, like, I think if we could find a way to decentralize the coordination side of things in something like e-cash or in something like, you know, like if we could build anything remotely close to something like, like tornado cash, I think that that's, you know, as the dust settles, you know, Tornado Cash is sort of still standing, you know, and I think that proves that we got to, we got to, we got to turn this thing into some sort of script.
01:54:33,264 --> 01:54:46,191
Speaker 0: But anyway, I mean, my hope was that after this, this, let's say, attack on Bitcoin privacy, you would see the beginning of like a BitTorrent era, right?
01:54:46,211 --> 01:54:48,593
Speaker 0: Like you saw the takedown of Napster, right?
01:54:48,833 --> 01:54:58,361
Speaker 0: In the late nineties, who were basically selling, allowing for the sale and trade and distribution of, of pirated music.
01:54:58,781 --> 01:55:02,664
Speaker 0: And the music industry shut down Napster with the power of the US government.
01:55:04,385 --> 01:55:06,735
Speaker 0: And then you had, BitTorrent.
01:55:06,775 --> 01:55:23,665
Speaker 0: as a result, and BitTorrent decentralized the distribution of media and BitTorrent still works and the Pirate Bay is still alive, you know, and you can still get any music and any movie you want online for free with pretty good privacy, right?
01:55:25,306 --> 01:55:31,533
Speaker 0: And even though most people are using and paying for Netflix, You know, and a lot of people are using Spotify.
01:55:32,234 --> 01:55:33,534
Speaker 0: Nevertheless, you can still get it.
01:55:33,734 --> 01:55:33,934
Speaker 0: Right.
01:55:34,574 --> 01:55:38,195
Speaker 0: So my hope is that something like that happens with Bitcoin.
01:55:38,555 --> 01:55:43,196
Speaker 0: But, you know, are you guys seeing the seeds for that?
01:55:45,956 --> 01:55:47,776
Speaker 0: And if so, where are they?
01:55:51,757 --> 01:55:56,098
Speaker 1: So what are the Bitcoin privacy errors here?
01:55:56,618 --> 01:55:59,960
Speaker 1: The very first one was the Satoshi era, right?
01:56:00,761 --> 01:56:11,507
Speaker 1: When everyone thought, well, everyone, I said the people who were actually working on it, but everyone else thought that Bitcoin is anonymous and you can just do whatever.
01:56:12,848 --> 01:56:14,349
Speaker 1: Didn't turn out that way.
01:56:14,449 --> 01:56:21,954
Speaker 1: And then centralized mixers came to the rescue, and there was an era of centralized mixers.
01:56:22,854 --> 01:56:28,275
Speaker 1: After that, joint market and Wasabi Wallet wrote the era of coin joins.
01:56:29,436 --> 01:56:36,660
Speaker 1: And it is definitely the case that we are moving into a new era.
01:56:37,240 --> 01:56:46,026
Speaker 1: And that new era is certainly more decentralized because, well, we have 10 coordinators instead of one.
01:56:48,567 --> 01:56:52,449
Speaker 1: Join market is still surviving.
01:56:56,394 --> 01:56:57,554
Speaker 1: But I don't know.
01:56:57,654 --> 01:57:01,715
Speaker 1: I don't know what this era will bring.
01:57:02,516 --> 01:57:11,778
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like a path for Bitcoin privacy, because the development is crippled by regulations at this point.
01:57:12,679 --> 01:57:23,582
Speaker 1: But maybe that's when some shadowy supercoder is going to come up with something crazy that none of us have thought about.
01:57:25,042 --> 01:57:25,242
Speaker 0: Right.
01:57:27,062 --> 01:57:41,555
Speaker 0: Yeah, I'm, I know a lot of these conversations around privacy end up getting kind of like blackpilled, you know, like you kind of feel a little bit, you know, like, oh man, we're, you know, this is like really difficult, but I'm actually very optimistic.
01:57:41,595 --> 01:57:44,237
Speaker 0: I think, I think we're seeing, I think we just need.
01:57:46,144 --> 01:57:48,604
Speaker 0: We just need better scripting technology.
01:57:48,884 --> 01:57:53,445
Speaker 0: And I think we're realizing that, again, Bitcoin has actually really good scripting technology.
01:57:54,085 --> 01:58:00,767
Speaker 0: It's not ideal, you know, like it's very difficult to use, but it's still very powerful.
01:58:01,527 --> 01:58:04,267
Speaker 0: And so, you know, we're seeing a boom on that front.
01:58:04,667 --> 01:58:12,929
Speaker 0: And I do hope that we get, you know, like under pressure, we come up with something great here.
01:58:15,129 --> 01:58:16,390
Speaker 0: I'll ask you guys one more question.
01:58:17,612 --> 01:58:24,078
Speaker 0: The zero knowledge sort of proof side of anonymity, right?
01:58:24,679 --> 01:58:37,252
Speaker 0: Like the bullet proofs, the ring signature stuff, the confidential transactions, the C-cash stuff, that whole tech tree of privacy.
01:58:39,906 --> 01:58:49,611
Speaker 0: Do you guys see a way to bring that to Bitcoin, um, even with some custody trade-offs or some, like, is there, is there a path that could develop there?
01:58:49,772 --> 01:58:58,156
Speaker 0: Or is that just like, you know, like we can't get it unless we give up the, the, the verifiability of Bitcoin supply cap.
01:58:59,777 --> 01:59:03,039
Speaker 3: So I think we might get there with BitVM.
01:59:03,719 --> 01:59:06,381
Speaker 3: Um, I'm not at all a Bitcoin script expert.
01:59:06,952 --> 01:59:13,115
Speaker 3: But SuperTestNet had previously posted on Noster after the quote, invention of BitVM.
01:59:13,135 --> 01:59:16,437
Speaker 3: He says, I want to create tornado cash on Bitcoin.
01:59:17,378 --> 01:59:18,738
Speaker 3: And boy, is that a bold statement.
01:59:24,241 --> 01:59:49,481
Speaker 3: So I think that there, even if the Bitcoin community doesn't manage to fully change consensus rules based on the threats that are at hand, that maybe bitvm is a is a hack like a workaround that will get us there you know in 2015.
01:59:49,481 --> 01:59:58,969
Speaker 1: i was working a couple of years on a system called tumblebeat from stanford cryptographers and.
02:00:00,000000 --> 02:00:07,980000
And the interesting thing there is that, you know, it had a lot of user experience issues.
02:00:07,980000 --> 02:00:23,380000
But what they achieved there is that they did a lot of over-engineering of that system because we didn't have segregated witness.
02:00:24,700000 --> 02:00:27,160000
And they were not sure we were ever going to get it.
02:00:27,160000 --> 02:00:33,600000
So now then we got segregated witness and the system become simpler.
02:00:33,600000 --> 02:00:37,900000
But now we have Taproot and all these kind of new things.
02:00:38,080000 --> 02:00:42,200000
I don't even know what they are like you guys are talking about right now.
02:00:42,200000 --> 02:00:55,700000
So if it was possible, even without Taproot and even without segregated witness, to come up with some great scripting magic like Tumblr bit in 2015,
02:00:55,700000 --> 02:00:56,300000
then.
02:00:57,160000 --> 02:01:02,440000
It's never the possibility is the issue, right?
02:01:02,440000 --> 02:01:07,340000
Like the best way to predict the future is to invent it yourself.
02:01:08,800000 --> 02:01:16,840000
It's always like who's going to take the time and spend the time on developing these things out.
02:01:16,840000 --> 02:01:23,020000
So that's that's that's always a bigger question rather than what's technologically possible.
02:01:23,900000 --> 02:01:25,440000
Yeah, that's a great quote.
02:01:26,560000 --> 02:01:27,140000
I love that quote.
02:01:27,160000 --> 02:01:32,080000
The best way to predict the future is to build it yourself, to create it yourself.
02:01:34,180000 --> 02:01:37,300000
I mean, I think we've had a great conversation.
02:01:37,300000 --> 02:01:40,360000
Is there anything else that you guys want to mention?
02:01:41,200000 --> 02:01:47,680000
Maybe Krew, can you tell us how we can use the coordinator you're running?
02:01:49,440000 --> 02:01:56,740000
Sure. If you go to Krew.io, it has a very basic web page.
02:01:57,160000 --> 02:01:58,980000
That'll walk you through the steps and the client.
02:01:58,980000 --> 02:02:03,740000
There's a couple of different resources out there that will help you find other coordinators.
02:02:03,740000 --> 02:02:05,420000
So there's wabi satier.com.
02:02:05,420000 --> 02:02:08,080000
There's the free Sabi bot on Twitter.
02:02:08,080000 --> 02:02:11,640000
And then the BTC .
02:02:11,640000 --> 02:02:21,860000
Developer Cooks has a stand alone application that will search and oster for coordinators publishing their info.
02:02:21,860000 --> 02:02:26,180000
So hopefully we'll have that sort of functionality directly in wasabi wall insane.
02:02:26,180000 --> 02:02:36,100000
in Wasabi Wallet. I believe the plans are to make it so that any Wasabi client can also just
02:02:36,100000 --> 02:02:45,380000
spawn a new coordinator behind an Onion server. So we're going to try and make it even more spread
02:02:45,380000 --> 02:02:53,400000
out. But yeah, I guess one more final thought is also that BTC Pay Server is an incredibly
02:02:53,400000 --> 02:02:59,340000
underrated tool for Coinjoins because they have a Coinjoin plugin on that that has a bunch of
02:02:59,340000 --> 02:03:05,720000
advanced features for Coinjoins that aren't even in Wasabi yet. So definitely check out BTC Pay
02:03:05,720000 --> 02:03:11,000000
Server's Coinjoin plugin. Yeah, that's cool. And one of the ideas that I've been hearing about is
02:03:11,000000 --> 02:03:18,720000
sort of, again, like you just basically mentioned that is anybody can be the coordinator. And
02:03:18,720000 --> 02:03:23,380000
is there a way to keep, to expand the liquidity of such a
02:03:23,400000 --> 02:03:26,820000
Coinjoin where any participant can be the coordinator?
02:03:28,820000 --> 02:03:37,460000
So there's a bit of an incentive mismatch when it comes to Coinjoin coordination,
02:03:37,460000 --> 02:03:44,880000
because ZKSnacks was the previous default coordinator in Wasabi Wallet. And it made sense
02:03:44,880000 --> 02:03:49,880000
for everyone to use the same coordinator, because the more people you have in the same transaction,
02:03:50,320000 --> 02:03:53,380000
the more privacy you gain for the same amount of fees, right?
02:03:53,400000 --> 02:04:02,840000
So you'd much rather participate in a single Coinjoin transaction for 100 inputs than four
02:04:02,840000 --> 02:04:09,640000
Coinjoin transactions that each have 25 inputs. Maybe that's not exactly correct, but basically,
02:04:09,640000 --> 02:04:13,880000
it will cost you less to be in the biggest Coinjoin round. You'll get the most privacy.
02:04:14,600000 --> 02:04:23,160000
So it's a bit of a problem that you don't really need 100,000 Coinjoin coordinators, right? Because,
02:04:23,400000 --> 02:04:25,900000
nothing of them are going to...
02:04:33,780000 --> 02:04:38,880000
So, so maybe if... maybe it's just an open research question, how to
02:04:38,880000 --> 02:04:51,340000
get clients to agree on the same coordinator without, you know, coordinators—like 1,000 coordinators being run by the same entity, right, to try and spoof this mechanism.
02:04:51,340000 --> 02:04:53,080000
So, I don't know if you need proof of that or not, but yeah, that's about it.
02:04:53,400000 --> 02:05:01,660000
work or fidelity bonds or some sort of anti-civil mechanism to distinguish one person with one
02:05:01,660000 --> 02:05:12,800000
identity. But yeah, it's a bit of a tricky situation because users want to use the same
02:05:12,800000 --> 02:05:19,760000
coordinator. It's a good thing for them. Right. And is there any obvious
02:05:19,760000 --> 02:05:29,380000
risk or let's say, what could a malicious coordinator do to a user in, let's say,
02:05:29,420000 --> 02:05:36,480000
in a worst case scenario? Right. So this was something that was actually fixed in the most
02:05:36,480000 --> 02:05:42,220000
recent version of Wasabi Wallet 2.0.8.1. I didn't think about this attack specter, but
02:05:42,220000 --> 02:05:42,780000
I don't know.
02:05:42,800000 --> 02:05:47,060000
But it makes sense. So when you first start a coin join round, the coordinator
02:05:47,060000 --> 02:05:54,080000
requires some fee rate, right? 25 satoshis per V-byte or something like that.
02:05:54,740000 --> 02:06:00,620000
Now, let's say when the coordinator is done building the transaction and it's ready for
02:06:00,620000 --> 02:06:06,920000
the participants to sign, let's say they instead make the final transaction only 20 satoshis per
02:06:06,920000 --> 02:06:12,460000
V-byte. Well, they can pocket that five satoshis per V-byte difference that users were intending
02:06:12,460000 --> 02:06:12,780000
to pay.
02:06:12,800000 --> 02:06:16,480000
So that's the only way to get the money to the miners, but instead leaking that money
02:06:16,480000 --> 02:06:23,340000
to the coordinator. So this is now fixed in the newest version, but it's a clever way
02:06:23,340000 --> 02:06:29,600000
to extract money. So yeah, that's the only one I'm aware of, but now it's no longer an
02:06:29,600000 --> 02:06:29,740000
issue.
02:06:30,160000 --> 02:06:36,780000
So it's like an arbitrage setup where people pay, let's say, $5 on chain fee equivalent,
02:06:36,780000 --> 02:06:42,480000
and then they just try to get the transactions in for $4 and keep the dollar. Is that the
02:06:42,480000 --> 02:06:42,620000
idea?
02:06:42,800000 --> 02:06:47,360000
Right. Yeah. So it's the coordinator being a little dishonest about the fees required
02:06:47,360000 --> 02:06:50,280000
versus the fees they actually pass on to the miners.
02:06:50,280000 --> 02:06:53,960000
Okay. Now, Parra, is that the same thing you were talking about where they
02:06:53,960000 --> 02:06:57,420000
brought down the default fee to zero?
02:06:59,640000 --> 02:07:06,340000
No, that's a different thing. Then maybe Kru can shed some light on. But for now,
02:07:06,420000 --> 02:07:12,260000
I just want to shed light to the level of discussion here. I mean, what Kru is talking
02:07:12,260000 --> 02:07:12,720000
about.
02:07:12,800000 --> 02:07:22,040000
Is that, well, instead of paying $100 to the miners, the coordinator steals $5, and the
02:07:22,040000 --> 02:07:29,040000
coordinator gets $5. So I wouldn't consider this much of an issue.
02:07:30,800000 --> 02:07:35,360000
Well, with the particular numbers I set up, it wasn't with 20 and 25 sets per V-byte,
02:07:35,360000 --> 02:07:42,400000
but the coordinator could suggest 500 Satoshi per V-byte and then only paid 20. So there's
02:07:42,400000 --> 02:07:44,160000
kind of no limit to how much that would be.
02:07:44,160000 --> 02:07:46,060000
Ah, I see. I see.
02:07:46,820000 --> 02:07:55,440000
But yeah, in terms of Juan, what you were talking about with the new fee limits for
02:07:55,440000 --> 02:08:03,360000
coordination fee and mining fee in the client. So let's say you originally joined the CoinJoin
02:08:03,360000 --> 02:08:08,440000
coordinator, and they were originally charging a 0% fee, and they were originally creating
02:08:08,440000 --> 02:08:12,380000
big rounds with 50 or 100 or more.
02:08:12,400000 --> 02:08:18,720000
Inputs, right? And then all of a sudden, one day, they decide, you know, I'm going to increase my fee
02:08:18,720000 --> 02:08:26,560000
to 1%. And instead of these CoinJoins having 50 inputs, now it only needs two inputs. So they're
02:08:26,560000 --> 02:08:32,140000
going to try and charge you this 1% as often as possible. And you're going to keep on remixing
02:08:32,140000 --> 02:08:40,360000
without ever gaining any real privacy. So the new safeguards in 2.0.8 allow you to set a hard
02:08:40,360000 --> 02:08:42,380000
maximum on the coordination fee.
02:08:42,380000 --> 02:08:47,180000
You're willing to pay as well as a hard maximum on the mining fee. You're willing to pay. So it
02:08:47,180000 --> 02:08:53,420000
pushes a lot more control onto the clients so that coordinators can't suddenly change their mind and
02:08:53,420000 --> 02:08:59,340000
provide shitty service at a high cost and drain wallets of users in a way that they don't like.
02:09:00,620000 --> 02:09:02,780000
Well, I mean, there was a hard maximum.
02:09:04,540000 --> 02:09:11,980000
Or there was a hard maximum, it just they lowered it to zero by default. So I don't really see
02:09:11,980000 --> 02:09:12,380000
why.
02:09:12,380000 --> 02:09:13,340000
That's a good idea.
02:09:13,340000 --> 02:09:22,380000
Well, yes, so the previous hard maximum was 1%. So a malicious coordinator could only drain your
02:09:22,380000 --> 02:09:29,180000
wallet slowly. But if you were to leave it your wallet online for like two days, you know,
02:09:29,180000 --> 02:09:34,380000
eventually enough transactions would be mined and you would remix enough times to where they could,
02:09:35,340000 --> 02:09:37,180000
you might not realize your money is draining.
02:09:37,180000 --> 02:09:41,880000
But do you reach the anonymity set? Do you reach the anonymity set? Do you reach the anonymity set?
02:09:41,880000 --> 02:09:41,980000
Do you reach the anonymity set? Do you reach the anonymity set? Do you reach the anonymity set?
02:09:41,980000 --> 02:09:49,840000
Yes, but if the coordinator is creating rounds with like a minimum of two inputs,
02:09:49,840000 --> 02:09:54,240000
then you'll never reach your anonymity score. It'll just basically stays there.
02:09:54,240000 --> 02:10:01,440000
Oh, okay. Okay, so this is what I was talking about. People were accusing Krew of being my
02:10:01,440000 --> 02:10:09,200000
sock puppet. Now everyone can see that he's not my sock puppet. And he's so smart that he's even
02:10:09,200000 --> 02:10:10,360000
smarter than I am.
02:10:11,980000 --> 02:10:15,320000
Yeah, I mean, if you're sock poppiting this, Napara, you're a magician.
02:10:16,400000 --> 02:10:18,640000
Like the accent switch is just incredible.
02:10:18,640000 --> 02:10:21,760000
Yeah, me interrupting him. That's pretty impressive, too.
02:10:21,760000 --> 02:10:28,000000
Very impressive. I mean, that's next level AI stuff, you know. Like, that's predictive AI,
02:10:28,560000 --> 02:10:36,560000
you know. Very fast GPUs. Very impressive. I mean, if you're sock poppiting this, you might as well
02:10:36,560000 --> 02:10:40,840000
just be doing, we might as well just give you all our money, like, just take my money and fix the
02:10:40,840000 --> 02:10:41,840000
problem, because you're a genie.
02:10:41,840000 --> 02:10:54,460000
is you know i take it i'll take your money um yeah no that's really interesting okay so
02:10:54,460000 --> 02:11:01,060000
you know this question of the fees like the the fee arbitrage i mean i understand why you see it
02:11:01,060000 --> 02:11:09,160000
as a vulnerability but it seems to me like it's an opportunity right because you know if if you
02:11:09,160000 --> 02:11:17,240000
just allow the coordinators to like find ways to optimize the the the transaction fee and take the
02:11:17,240000 --> 02:11:26,320000
spread i mean the the users have to pay the on-chain transaction fee you know and so it
02:11:26,320000 --> 02:11:32,580000
actually provides a profit motive like like a a profit opportunity for the coordinator
02:11:32,580000 --> 02:11:37,740000
which again like maybe maybe there's trade-offs there's probably trade there's trade-offs and
02:11:37,740000 --> 02:11:39,040000
everything right but like
02:11:39,160000 --> 02:11:43,840000
is that a line of thought you guys have maybe explored i'm sure you have like
02:11:43,840000 --> 02:11:51,960000
like why not just let people you know play that game definitely so like in the new version of
02:11:51,960000 --> 02:11:57,620000
wasabi like users get to choose their own fee maximums right um but yeah in terms of the
02:11:57,620000 --> 02:12:02,940000
arbitrage thing i wouldn't say what i was describing earlier is an arbitrage opportunity
02:12:02,940000 --> 02:12:07,940000
i would say it's like strictly malicious what a coordinator would do here is claim that they
02:12:07,940000 --> 02:12:09,140000
were going to pay a high mining fee
02:12:09,160000 --> 02:12:15,160000
and then pay a very low one however um there is an opportunity even for free coordinators
02:12:15,160000 --> 02:12:23,700000
to um to monetize even if they don't directly charge their users and this is due to the way
02:12:23,700000 --> 02:12:30,380000
the wabi-sabi protocol um itself works well maybe not the protocol but like the way the um amount
02:12:30,380000 --> 02:12:37,040000
organization part like the the equal outputs right so if you have a random amount of bitcoin like
02:12:37,040000 --> 02:12:39,140000
point one two three four five six seven eight nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine
02:12:39,160000 --> 02:12:48,520000
nine right um when you're splitting this into the coin join amounts um you aren't necessarily going
02:12:48,520000 --> 02:12:58,440000
to get exactly you know uh an equal sized output um or multiple equal equal size outputs that add
02:12:58,440000 --> 02:13:03,960000
up to the exact amount normally there's about 500 satoshis per user left over now we don't know
02:13:03,960000 --> 02:13:08,200000
exactly we can't measure it other than just simulations because the coordinator doesn't know
02:13:09,160000 --> 02:13:13,960000
how many participants there are what their coins are anything but it's approximately 500 satoshis
02:13:13,960000 --> 02:13:21,400000
that are basically left behind as a tip by um by users when they coin join so the coordinator can
02:13:21,400000 --> 02:13:29,880000
collect that um or they can add it to the mining fee so the it's it's you know i guess more than
02:13:29,880000 --> 02:13:33,160000
you know routing a lightning payment right you can make a couple satoshis routing a lightning
02:13:33,160000 --> 02:13:37,480000
lightning payment um but a coordinator even if they're not directly charging their users
02:13:38,360000 --> 02:13:39,080000
can um
02:13:39,160000 --> 02:13:46,120000
just sweep up this these couple leftover satoshis from all the users and add it up and if there's
02:13:46,120000 --> 02:13:51,100000
enough of it you can actually create an on-chain utxo to claim yourself as the coordinator
02:13:51,100000 --> 02:14:02,560000
right yeah no that's really interesting um last question i think uh we unfortunately have to cut
02:14:02,560000 --> 02:14:07,860000
it short i'm really loving this conversation um and i think you know i i mean i could keep going
02:14:07,860000 --> 02:14:08,360000
but
02:14:08,360000 --> 02:14:14,600000
what do you where are you guys out with uh stealth addresses uh on wasabi wallet is this
02:14:14,600000 --> 02:14:17,440000
something you guys are implementing uh also what about pay join
02:14:17,440000 --> 02:14:26,400000
so pay join is supported for sending in wasabi so you can send to a btc pay server or join market
02:14:26,400000 --> 02:14:36,980000
uh pay join peer um with the stealth addresses we want to do um bip 352 silent payments but as far
02:14:36,980000 --> 02:14:38,340000
as i know it's just in the middle of the market so we're going to be able to send it to a btc pay server
02:14:38,360000 --> 02:14:38,860000
so we're going to be able to send it to a btc pay server so we're going to be able to send it to a
02:14:38,860000 --> 02:14:46,220000
there's no you know pr in progress or anything like that but um i i personally think it's a
02:14:46,220000 --> 02:14:51,400000
great idea i mean it's not strictly a privacy improvement it doesn't bring anything new to
02:14:51,400000 --> 02:14:58,700000
bitcoin and it doesn't already have but it's a ux improvement and um nopara's vision for uh
02:14:58,700000 --> 02:15:03,500000
for wasabi wallet is to make it so easy for privacy your grandma can use it right
02:15:03,500000 --> 02:15:07,900000
and um you know having a silent payment address that you
02:15:08,360000 --> 02:15:12,080000
can just copy and paste the same thing over and over without having to
02:15:12,080000 --> 02:15:15,000000
generate a new address every time you want to receive a payment you know
02:15:15,000000 --> 02:15:19,640000
brings that bar of the ux higher um so that people don't accidentally
02:15:19,640000 --> 02:15:24,420000
or you know not necessarily accidentally i guess they're doing delivery when deliberately when they
02:15:24,420000 --> 02:15:29,020000
were using address but that they don't just be lazy and forfeit privacy that they could
02:15:29,020000 --> 02:15:32,240000
preserve by generating a new address every time
02:15:32,240000 --> 02:15:38,340000
yeah that's huge so you guys are implementing those on was on wasabi wallet
02:15:38,360000 --> 02:15:45,500000
uh it's on the roadmap but i would say zero progress so far
02:15:45,500000 --> 02:15:50,400000
okay because i mean i think i you know i hope you guys do i mean that seems to me like a
02:15:50,400000 --> 02:15:57,840000
a great addition to it i would probably start using it more regularly if such uh because
02:15:57,840000 --> 02:16:01,420000
yeah i mean stealth addresses are super exciting i think that's that's definitely the way
02:16:01,420000 --> 02:16:07,440000
the way to move forward for now uh while other some of these other technologies kind of uh mature
02:16:08,360000 --> 02:16:12,760000
also it'd be interesting again like if you could just have like you know like a lottery system
02:16:12,760000 --> 02:16:20,920000
where if like if you vouch in to be uh you know at almost like a tor exit node of of a of a coin
02:16:20,920000 --> 02:16:26,520000
join and you just maybe you know you get some sats or you just do it for free and and there's you
02:16:26,520000 --> 02:16:30,380000
know it's automated in the background and you don't even you know you don't have to do actively
02:16:30,380000 --> 02:16:36,480000
do anything right like just have it you know a hundred people jump in that so like the the
02:16:36,480000 --> 02:16:38,060000
protocol throws the dice somebody
02:16:38,360000 --> 02:16:44,700000
coordinates it and it gets done and and you know like is that a thing you guys are looking at
02:16:44,700000 --> 02:16:52,540000
yes but the uh the issue here is the dice throwing the dice um making sure that's fair
02:16:52,540000 --> 02:16:56,600000
is the issue use the use the nouns of the proof of work
02:16:56,600000 --> 02:17:06,600000
like you have to mind to be a coordinator well no just like the the last block the last blocks
02:17:08,360000 --> 02:17:09,060000
pretty random no
02:17:09,060000 --> 02:17:17,500000
right but what do you use that for to i don't know hash it then come up with like uh
02:17:18,220000 --> 02:17:25,800000
come up with the winner come up with the the selected coordinator uh you know use that as
02:17:25,800000 --> 02:17:33,580000
the entropy if that makes sense i think there's a protocol yeah i think that makes sense yeah
02:17:33,580000 --> 02:17:36,540000
there's a protocol that was doing something like this i can't remember which one but
02:17:38,360000 --> 02:17:47,660000
i i don't think that's the problem here i i think what crew was well i don't know why he brought up
02:17:47,660000 --> 02:17:55,520000
the dicing issue but i think what crew was talking about before is that uh what if someone sets up a
02:17:55,520000 --> 02:18:03,140000
bunch of coordinators right it's a it's a it's a denial of it's like a what's the name for that um
02:18:03,140000 --> 02:18:06,700000
civil attack a civil attack problem gotcha
02:18:06,700000 --> 02:18:08,220000
oh
02:18:08,360000 --> 02:18:14,440000
it's an interesting civil attack right not a not just traditional civil attack it's civil attack to
02:18:14,440000 --> 02:18:20,120000
maximize your income well yeah there's worse problems you know i mean the bottom line is
02:18:20,120000 --> 02:18:26,040000
liquidity we need more liquidity on this coin just that's the bottom line but anyway uh our producer
02:18:26,040000 --> 02:18:31,560000
has to go so uh we're gonna call it thank you everybody for joining i really appreciate you
02:18:31,560000 --> 02:18:35,560000
coming on no power and crew i think you know we we gotta have another one in the future i'll
02:18:36,120000 --> 02:18:38,120000
i'll uh i'll reach out to you both
02:18:38,360000 --> 02:18:42,600000
and uh crew if you want to follow me we can maybe set up dms and stuff if you're up for it
02:18:42,600000 --> 02:18:47,160000
at some other time but uh thank you everybody for joining uh this has been another episode
02:18:47,160000 --> 02:18:53,000000
of the juan galt show the podcast will be published on all podcasting apps itunes spotify
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02:18:59,560000 --> 02:19:04,120000
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I will send this straight to your inbox in a few days so thank you everybody for joining
02:19:13,000000 --> 02:19:18,920000
and keep up the good work and I think there's a lot of actually a lot of opportunity at hand
02:19:18,920000 --> 02:19:26,380000
and a renewed motivation to solve privacy in this world all right take care guys see you in the next
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